even Cameron thinks part 1 didn't add up logically.

@Major Noob

LOL... True True.... give me a Burger King any day of the week!

As far as the OT that i have not yet touched upon and that is Cameron said Prometheus never added up, well in some parts.... HE IS CORRECT!

Only when you watch the movie a number of times it makes some sense, its only when you look at things in detail, such as Mural and Frescos and by that i mean the online images as we never got good enough view of them in the movie.

Its only when we see the deleted scenes, that they cast some light on the puzzles...

And its only when we see and cross reference things from the drafts, and tie them in with Alien and also Star Beast that some more logical clues are made.

Even then the movie was too vague and trying to be to clever and thus some parts was confusing, some parts never added up and thats because of how the movie was cut and edited more than anything.

When we read the Drafts they go from A-Z.... if we saw the full movie A-Z as it was first intended as far as shooting of scenes, which includes scenes we never even saw on deleted scenes list.... these include the Alternative shot of Weyland in the Hanger and Shaw reverse over Fifield Mutant, and the Engineer leaving his chair after the crash and then running across LV 223 to get to the lifeboat, and the scene of him reading a Book in the Life Boat.

Has these been added and the movie ran from A-Z then it would have made more sense...

@Something Real

As i pointed out we saw from Alien more of a Fly mentality but where as a Fly just needs to mate, and then find meat to lay Eggs, the Xeno needs to find a host to then mutate to procreate.. but basically by Fly i meant its purpose was simply to procreate itself for no other purpose well we never got clues to why...

Aliens tried to show us why, and that they have a hive/nest mentality like Ants/Bees.

What i mean and as you say, we dont know the purpose of the Xeno, we have been given clues.

In Alien they was a Cargo of Eggs, these got comprimised and so the Space Jockey set a warning we did not know the purpose, and why the Space Jockey had them but from what the Company Weyland-Yutani wanted it was shown they wanted it as a Weapon and so maybe thats what they was.

Ridley did off screen then confirm that yes the Xeno was a Bio Weapon of sorts.

Prometheus goes to show us the Engineers indeed use the Jugernaught/Derelict as Bio Weapon War Ships, and so the Xeno or something connected to it is used as a Weapon.

But then Promethues seems to show us and hint that there is maybe more to it, or more to the origins and connection with Engineers than maybe just a Bio Weapon.  We do see a Bio Weapon created but it seems a Bio Weapon created from something... or to create something..

so there is more of a Agenda than purely what a normal weapon has i.e a Nuke, or Nerve Gas etc etc.

This Agenda and purpose i hope we do get to find out why?

This is definitely where we differ. I do see Prometheus as more whimsical, for want of a better term. Yes a lot of substance was inserted to ground it in the rest of the Alien universe, but not necessarily reality. I think that was the big disappointment for many, it wasn't an extension of the gritty motifs on view in Alien.

Aliens marched to the beat of logic, for sure, and it worked for that film. But if you take in the saga as a whole, each film had its own artistic mandate, and to me Ridley only ran with that. Here's Cameron on logic:

Lofficier: Okay, but when you were writing the script, were you aware at any time that you were taking chances with the credibility of the story by coming up with something that’s a little bit too hard to swallow, or did you just trust the director to pull the fat out of the fire? For example, there is the ending with the Queen coming out of the landing gear, or the scene when the crew barricade themselves in and later the Aliens just walk through the ceiling – surely, they should have thought of that?

Cameron: Being a visual person, I work backwards from the imagery that I like. The logic of a scene, I believe, is secondary to the enjoyment of it. You have to assume that Ripley was dumb enough not to check the sub-ceiling, or you have to assume that she was so thorough that she though she had accounted for everything, and there was something that she had missed or didn’t know, or wasn’t in the blueprint.

Yes, as a writer, you wrestle with all these things. It’s not as much a question of whether it’s illogical, it’s a question of whether you need to put in so much expository material to explain the point. If you over-explain, you look like you’re talking to the audience, which is not good. You’re telegraphing. You’re no longer have the surprise.

For example, when the Queen holds on to the landing gear, and stows away inside the ship for the final sequence, do we show that? Do we show how she did it? No, because then you’d lose the surprise factor.

All great points and perhaps the only message which would seem logical is that Fantasy or SciFi dieectors should perhaps not comment of the Logic of other directer's films.....

in the old days you saw a movie at the theatre. If you wanted to see it again you had to pay... There were no VHS, Beta Max, Discs or Downloads. It was very hard to study a film. You could'nt watch frame by frame in slow mo or still... This made it very hard to pic continuity or story plot holes and added to the mystery of the film as a hole. If, after seeing Alien for the first time you were asked to describe what the Alien looked like, I doubt anyone would be able to describe the creature in any detail. These days its easy. We know every cm of this enigma and this lessons the mystery...

djamelameziane published this thread to rub off on the fans of the movie that the opinion of the haters was validated in a definitive way because another film director said something derogatory about it.

It is a thread conceived in bad faith, without the intention of exchanging opinions, of creating a dialogue with the members of this board. Rather, it was created in a "TOLDJA!" sort of way.

What djamelameziane doesn't seem to realize is that he failed miserably in his intended preaching because he based his provocation (some could say a barely disguised attack) on two glaring logical fallacies. They are:

>>> Argumentum ab auctoritate (appeal to authority): You said that because an authority thinks something, it must therefore be true, and

>>> Argumentum ad populum (appeal to widespread belief, bandwagon argument, appeal to the majority, appeal to the people) – where a proposition is claimed to be true or good solely because many people believe it to be so.

Following your (lack of) logic, Titanic is an awful film because legendary filmmaker Robert Altman said so. Oh, and Blade Runner actually sucks because most people actively disliked in during its original release.

See how your rationale it doesn't add up?

Next time, please be more considerate to diverging opinions when you post on a discussion forum dedicated to the film you want to mock. Or at least try and offer some valid points to make instead of baseless remarks that can't be taken seriously by anyone with a modicum of intelligence.

Who is James Cameron? :-)

@Cremildo

I think its all just oppinion and no two people share the same with every matter, life would be boring otherwise..

Yeah who ever was bashing Cameron badly well thats there oppinion but while some can dislike his stuff in general you cant argue that his movies generally do great, even if not everyones cup of tea.

As you pointed out Titanic does not have to be a bad movie because some acliamed film maker said so... its each to there own.

Titanic did fantastic, its a movie that is great to many... to me well i never liked it as its not my kind of cup of tea, Avatar to a degree also.

Harry Potter... cant stand it, its a bit silly and well not my thing, dont mean i am correct as look at the money its made, most people would find it fantastic.

Some dont like the Lord of the Rings movies for example, while i thought they was great.

No two people have the same views, but while some may think some peoples work is poor, if we are to go by the general public then thats like broader audience, then while some may think Avatar was well not very good.... well most who have seen it would beg to differ else the movie would not have gone on to do so well.

Denial is a strange thing and yes even if Ridley Scott ran up to you Crem with Lindelof on his back and a megaphone saying "IT DIDNT ADD UP LOGICALLY" im sure you would still be saying similar things.

You post lacks so much logic its not even worth explaining it to you as you would only deny anything I say added up. I think it would be best to post a video of you instead in your honour :D :

Ps you remind me of an old member called allinnumberclad your not the same guy? He was pompous and archaic in his thoughts too kind of like a calculator trying to teach a MacBook pro ;p

DJ whether or not it adds up is in the mind of the viewer. Clearly for you, and for many, it didn't add up, and that's just fine. Speaking only for myself, it added up enough, IF you accept its about a bunch of arrogant, fallible humans in way over their heads and with various agendas that will cost them dearly.

My view has always been that this is the core theme in all the Alien movies, acquisition of power or knowledge and the potential consequences, which become ever more dire with the level of power being sought. Even the Engineers display this behavior, paying prices we can hardly imagine for their folly. So we got caricatures of that in the crew, and their ignorance and in some cases diabolical megalomania sent them all to their grave, with the exception of a few.

And of course the AI survives and so does one human, and why does she survive? Was it luck or something more divine? How does that add up in her mind? One can argue it was the AI that finally saved her bacon. So how does all this look to her now?

See, I'm fascinated by all this, and the format in which it was presented, which is why Im thrilled RS is set to direct the next installment. I'm hoping for more of the same.

I guess depends by what does not add up, this movie is very vague and so its soooooo ambigious that means no two people may arrive at the some conclusion, for some there was enough clues for them to interpret enough to make some sense and for other not enough for them to make sense of the movie.

There are a lot of ideas going on in this movie and hardly any are explained in a spoon fed way.

If by not adding up its a case of some parts made little sense, then i can agree, but for me the only major not adding up parts are the cut of the movie we got.... and also how some things contradict what we are shown or attempted to be Shown....

Anyway yes I suppose if your watching it with a pinch of salt maybe not seriously letting things go good on you. You can enjoy but you would be ignoring Ridley saying it's sci fi with some horror I guess you could add. Ignoring it being realistic even after alien was ultra realistic and did it almost perfectly. You could ignore the fact Ridley films have been going down hill for a long time. James Cameron.. film critics ...millions of people saying it didn't add up. And not just at a logical level within the film but the film making itself! Etc.etc. Unfortunately I can't it's true and yes I do watch other films like you letting it go etc. a film like say iron man...you know it's tongue in cheek a bit of fun etc. . Prometheus was clearly a serious film trying to be realistic sci fi . And got totally muddled up in the making to many cooks possibly not too mention the viral stuff following suit being all over the place...messed up and badly organized...yet another clue to what happened! Anyway yes there are tea leaf readers that could enjoy anything and that's up to them of course but I prefer to watch with my eyes open :p .And yes I fully understand what it was trying to do and all of the clues it just didn't do it well...looked stunning and was an amazing idea in the first place and yes I'm hoping part 2 blows me away...I'm hoping mind control to explain why everyone was more stupid than is actually possible in real life! Wow did I just write all that I must be bored!

I'm glad you brought up Iron Man because not too far into Prometheus I got a cartoony sort of super- vibe, like a Heavy Metal cartoon come to life. Maybe that's why I'm so forgiving of it, I was really happy with the aesthetic. 

Yes, Alien was realistic, and I did foresee a return to that, but this new attitude grabbed me instantly. I actually don't generally care for super hero movies, but this was that bombastic feel made my way. 

Yes most super hero films are at best average maybe Spider-Man 2 and the hulk by ang Lee I quiet like. Avengers being a prime example of what scares me about the film industry today...all the money being in family's and maybe teenagers meaning the studios press for a wide audience making films wishy washy and bland and I feel in prometheus's case muddled. A mix of producers pulling it in one direction writers in other directions then a director not being able to keep it all together possibly through old age or being an island as such due to his god like film making status! He it's still my favorite director over all just been disappointed as of late... 

There's definitely a feel from Prometheus that was almost pg13. And, that too many hands were in the pot, so to speak, and some great ideas got diluted for the sake of earnings, a good example being the running time apparently being drastically cut. I'm just really happy it was made, it still stands head and shoulders above movies like The Avengers.

For what it's worth, I'm sorry you were disappointed with it. 

Yes that article is real, and he is allowed his opinion just like everyone else. He is a very good director, though I really didn't like 'Avatar' at all. And no I did not enjoy Prometheus much either, so this isn't me taking sides. I REALLY wish people would not keep fighting over Prometheus still after all this time...

Side note; Pretty sure Ridley made Prometheus exactly as he wanted it, no idea why people keep saying otherwise. 

I am not sure what some mean by Alien was realistic and Prometheus was not?

What areas?

The only areas that are a bit unrealistic are maybe how some of the crew acted, some of them was a bit cheesy too like Ravel and Chance and how they did not seem to have the fear of gid in them regarding that they was going to die.... but i guess you could say that they knew there was no choice. We get this in lots of movies, the Hero Aspect, i mean Ripley did the same thing also in Alien 3 by Sacrifice herself as she knew she was going to die anyway.

Yes some of the crew like Milburn and Fifield acted a bit odd, but they was plot devices and thus canon fodder... its rare to get a well written and acted cast for a Sci Fi Horror and you fail more than suceed because in these movies people are meant to die, and so at times they have to do silly stuff in order to jepodise themselves.

Aliens cast and way they was portrayed was flawless, so was the 1982 The Things,  they way Prometheus Cast was presented and The Thing 2011 the audience was never drawn to care or fear for them.

If by realistic its meant in how things dont add up with regards to the plot then yes somethings did not, some areas contridicted,  we was trying to be shown that this substance performs a certain way at the start of movie, and then in the movie latter it seems to act differently.  Its supposed to affected the Engineers i.e dead ones, but we also see the Cryo Sleep Pods with 3 dead chest bustered Engineers. Then we have to try make sense of the worm thing in Holloways eyes.

i could go on but not enough thought was put into the properties and effects of the Goo, it was never coherent.... Spaights draft and how the Nano Scarabs worked was coherent and if we look at this and apply it to the Goo as same thing just replace Goo with Bugs and then some parts make more sense.

I dont think we can start to use Alien to compare Prometheus.... lets just throw Alien in the bin and it never happened period... then we can assess many Sci Fi movies on their own merits and they are not as bad.... if we comepare to Alien then we are bound to find faults..

ALIEN was Unique, and near flawless movie and you will be hard pushed to find such a Original well filmed and written plot. We are trying to compare movies with near perfection.

No I do agree allot of it went ridleys way Svanya but there were particular times were Ridley said through a forced smile that the studios pay the bills in reference to why he can’t get what he wants such as budget...rating of the movie (budget brought down rating down as well to get more audience) . Possibly the studio bought Lindelof in and many other things like that you never really get to hear exactly what happens behind the scenes except small bits of info here and there. It just seemed like something was happening after all we see it in every film anyway these days more than it used to be.

And I see forums for heated debate sometimes it’s what they are for…people may seem like they never change their point of view and it’s all pointless but what they type and what they think are two different things :P ! I know I rib people hard sometimes but it’s part of the fun and I love the back n forth of it all with Prometheus and with more parts coming it won’t die just yet :D .

And dave : “I am not sure what some mean by Alien was realistic and Prometheus was not?

What areas?”

Too much to go into but I would say not a ‘bit’ unrealistic but ‘massively’ . It was obvious realism was sacrificed for dramatic appeal or at least what ridley and other thought was more fun to watch. After all even Spiaghts said on the dvd logic dictates you keep your helmet on directors want to take them off and the whole helmet taking off scene was changed from him slipping and breaking the helmet to him just taking it off – wow if ever a scene made me want to laugh out loud and then cry when they all do it as well :OO ! Yes if that sort of thing happened a few times maybe it would have been forgiven but there were hundreds and not just little things…but in your face things – that would never happen type shit!

“The only areas that are a bit unrealistic are maybe how some of the crew acted, some of them was a bit cheesy too like Ravel and Chance and how they did not seem to have the fear of gid in them regarding that they was going to die.... but i guess you could say that they knew there was no choice. We get this in lots of movies, the Hero Aspect, i mean Ripley did the same thing also in Alien 3 by Sacrifice herself as she knew she was going to die anyway.” Maybe you see it that way but I saw it as – cut that scene out all together – totally did not believe them – felt like I was watching a film and so was not realistic at all. Didn’t care if they died or not as they had no character built into them. And yer cheesy as hell  -yuck!

“Yes some of the crew like Milburn and Fifield acted a bit odd” again not odd just plain would not happen Fifield couldn’t find his way back even tough he had clear communication with the ship and a 3d map – jesus look at google maps today hows it going to be in the future! Then when fifields dead blind and mangled he turns up outside the front door…erm!

Yes that’s probably the worst parts when they clearly sacrificed the realism for other reasons mostly ridleys want of a certain thing like the rolling ship scene and helmets off etc….others were poor scientific judgements but some of these I guess we will have to really wait till the other parts to fully argue them out. Yes plot mistakes as well I mean plot mistakes can be anything so yes just plain mistakes I guess you call them?! Just far too much to go into its exhausting! Alien only for nano seconds made me think oh im watching a film – as in drawing me out of the fantasy of believing it could happen. And I have spoken to countless others that feel the same…And yes too much talk drag up again we have done it all before I know but alien is kind of the best thing to compare with I reckon! And dont forget ridley is 74 and juggling multiple complex projects no wonder things are getting muddled!

And no I don’t hate Prometheus just was so disappointed it could have been so much better with just a few tweaks to shift it into that amazing real im there feeling alien gave us! It was an amazing visual feast and amazing idea before it was made. And of course there still could be a reason for it all like mind control from a god like being but that’s remains to be seen…

Oh yes i see what you mean, your on about how some of the crew make silly mistakes that you would not them to be doing, some i dont think was bad...  Milburn was excited and maybe as Vickers hand picked some of the crew she made sure she got some of them who was not the best at their job because she wanted the mission to fail.  Thats my impression.

But others yes silly, i could actually buy Holloway taking off his Helmet it fits in with the Character we was given, but then for the rest of the crew to take them off just because Holloway could breath is a bit silly... you would expect at least Ford or David to warn them that we do not know if their are any airborne contaminates and its not wise to remove the Helmets.

They could gone round this by having Ford and David do some scans and say results came back clear and then we see Fifield who is bit crazy takes his off, then Milburn and then Holloway have to plead with Shaw...  that would have at least made more sense.

The bigger one was yes Fifield getting lost, again they should have added a scene where he got scared as he bumped into another Engineer body, or the walk to another room with another abis and he falls and loses his compunicator down the hole.... then radios in to say his Map thingy (future Sat Nav) is lost or broken....

This would made it more plausble.

So yes its tiny little things that if given more thought and added as above that would have helped to explain and give more logical reason to some silly mistakes... But i guess Ridley has to take than can as he is supposed to be in charge of all the fine details.

Anyway i got be off but tomorrow i will try and pick some bad parts of the movie to discus too.

Spaights himself says in the documentary that Fox wanted a more seasoned writer and hired Lindelof.

Yer that helmet scene was a stinker. I mean they even did a scan but didn't talk about bacteria microbes or that fact that they them selves would contaminate the place and basically feck up any future scientific studies of the place. Then if they knew there was no danger how then do you explain that they had no idea there was the black goo or the green sparkly goo on the panel our even an alive engineer or worms etc etc. So basically they had scanned that room and not that well and not around the corner so anything could of been there. The place probably would of had security if it was of any importance to keep other races or engineers out but I know that depends on part 2 and the bigger picture. On and on it just doesn't add up...I really hope they get advisers in for part 2...scientists geologists etc what ever is needed just get people who know about the shit to tell you if it makes sense! Oh Yer and someone to make all that really well made viral stuff to work correctly and together with the film...