Alien: Earth and Alien: Romulus sequel news

even Cameron thinks part 1 didn't add up logically.

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djamelameziane

MemberFacehuggerApril 20, 2014

Well it seems even james cameron has joined the 'it didn't add up logically team' now! http://www.kpopstarz.com/articles/88550/20140418/prometheus-2-james-cameron-scott-ridley-avatar.htm assuming it's real of course. The lovers got to be a bit convinced by now eh? :P

 "It's almost as if they are making it up as they go along" :D

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Necronom 4
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Cameron doesn't have the vision of great film makers like Kubric and Hitchcock, but Ridley does.

In the fullness of time, greatness is discovered, and that is how Prometheus will be viewed over time.

The flipside to that coin is that films like ALIENS - In the fullness of time - will be outed as being nothing more than overrated, hyped up, self indulgent sh!te!

I mean, if anyone requires proof of this, all they have to do is read most of the comments on this thread and other threads from members who are amongst the biggest fans of ALIEN and Prometheus in the world. Who were once fans of ALIENS (including myself.)

The poster was good though!

 

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Major Noob
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Hey N4 I totally agree with the Hitchcock parallel, which I think is really strong in Prometheus. Kubrick, too, but that's more obvious.

Cameron's a great film maker, no question, I enjoyed the hell out of Aliens too but its been overshadowed, now. It should be noted, to be fair, that he also said he was glad Prometheus was made, although in context the comment seemed a bit back handed. He is arrogant, but unlike Michael Bay he's earned it. Yes, he's known for big action films but at least they're coherent, whereas Bay is just juvenile.

And before the issue of coherence is brought up about Prometheus, I think for all its surreal fable spinning it was quite coherent. I had no problem understanding the basic story. The rest is up to the individual to decipher as they see fit. I think that was the whole point, sort of honoring the ambiguities that drove the popularity of Alien for 30 years, and expanding them.

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Necronom 4
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Noob; Ok, maybe i'm being a bit harsh on old Cameron, but i can't think of one good film he's made since T2.

The poster was good though!

 

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Something Real
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NECRONOM4 - It might be due to the fact that I'm a lady (and fairly girly), but I loved the Abyss and Avatar a great deal. Now, I know, they weren't Terminator 2 (that movie stands head and shoulders above nearly every other movie Cameron's made). That being said, there's a certain amount of, hmmm, let's say "emotion" that goes into each of Cameron's films. I firmly believe he wants to entertain his audiences and make them feel. Of course, after reading some of the artcles that have recently cropped-up, I realize that Cameron is an incredibly tyranical director - something I would never have thought given the tone of his films. I guess we learn something new almost every day! :)
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BigDave
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Well its all down to difference of oppinions, i for one really liked Aliens as a movie, it had a bit of everything.

Alien was a Enigma a Mystrey, and maybe should had been left alone as a standard movie, but then maybe we would never had seen all the Merchandise and Spin offs that came from exploring the Xeno more in Aliens. 

The Space Jockey was a Enigma, and some now disapointed at maybe the injustice that Prometheus did to that Enigma, and the sequel could even go futher to damaging the Space Jockey we just dont know, but could be another Xeno fest.... i hope by Alien-y they mean more of a suspense horror... but with a exploration/recover mission and a host of David 8's i dont think it would be so much, i think we would get more of a Alien 3 with more different xeno related Monsters..

As far as Cameron and the Xeno goes, Ridley had also long before Aliens sugested that the Alien was kind of insect like....  just as he said way before Prometheus and even Alien 3 that the Space Jockey was a Space suit.

Ive discused this lots of times, but a comparison with Ants is good, as Ants are the perfect lifeform in a sense, yeah they ant no Mankind, but have we been shown that the Xeno even in Alien was a creature that would do what Mankind can?

Nope it was a Parasite, that becomes a killing machine whos only purpose is to procreate its own kind and that was it simple as that.... And thus having a Queen fits in with that, and the Egg Morph well if thats how they make a Queen when there are none again makes perfect sense for a lifeform whos aim is to procreate and invest/wipe out.

some like to argue the Alien Xeno was more than that, it was clever, well i cant say Alien showed us down the path that it would get to Earth kill us off and take over planet and then start to create any kind of civilisation.

Oh but it was clever and Camerons Bugs was not.... nope it was showing signs of a creature that was in ideal enviroment to hide against a crew who are unarmed and trained, and its prime instinct was survive so that it can procreate.

Aliens we saw the Xeno cut the power, we saw how i protected the Hive at all costs, we saw how it then took to the space inbetween floors to avoid the sentry guns.  All signs of something more than just mindless Bugs like Star Ship Troopers.

Yes Cameron wanted the happy ending, and thank go we never got that, i think what Alien 3 did then was great.

I have also used the analogy of how a team of a few special ops when they are out numbered behind enemy lines with a clear objective to destroy something or someone would take a cautious aproach..

compared to how a team of say 30+ Marines and Navy Seals would react as far as protecting a objective, these marines would take more risks for the greater cause as opposed to being more stealthy.

Cameron has made some good movies, but he is argogant, Ridley is to a degree but not as much, Ridley has made some wonderful movies and visually with the details and especially when he does not use much in way of effects but uses real props and sets, its amazing...

But not with its flaws... (Gladiator Men in Jeans etc) and failures to produce Scale... Space Jockey and Engineers.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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BigDave
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@Redant

Excelent points....

 

Look if we can believe what we hear in that Ridley really liked Spaights draft and wanted to give us more answers to Alien etc, and thus he went ahead and put Spaights draft to the big screen.

We would have got something that would been too Alieny and something that stood between a Alien+Aliens with mix of Prometheus.

I liked what Lindeloff tried to do, but wish they then got someone else in or that Ridley then took Lindeloffs and Spaights and tried to marry the two and reach a draft that had a bit of both.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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BigDave
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I guess Avatar as not everyones cup of tea.... it was a idea to give us a whole new world to explore and a family movie as much as anyting, and it did fantastic.... we cant argue against that even though the movie was not my cup of tea, movies like that are not.  But i think they did wonders with creating the World etc.... again not my cup of tea.

End of the day Prometheus was a great potential, maybe Fox wanted to tone down the Xeno, because well as Ridley said every one as seen the Xeno done to the death, but we could have got some clues more than we did.... the movie was to explore the Space Jockey and that was the right thing to do.... only and especially with the cut we got, we never really explored them enough.

Going the route that they created us and are maybe the interpetations of many cultures Myths and Religons are based on is a MASSIVE SCOPE... but just as much a MASSIVE PROBLEM... you see when i worked on many ideas for how i would gone with Prometheus Part 2 most was simple..... apart from this connection, as i had so many ideas that kind of contridict and well was a massive task so i stopped doing rough draft as for the Engineers Agenda i had like well too many ideas that are all equally AWSOME but you could not have every idea used and i just could not think which to go with...

Thats the task that the production and writting staff now face, they have a MASSIVE TASK... but maybe going away from the Space Jockey/Engineers and going more back to the Alien Xeno is a easier way out.... and i fear thats what we will now get.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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BigDave
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Ideally....

I would have loved to see some other writter come onboard and merge best parts of Spaights and Lindeloffs work, with trying to tie in the ideas from Star Beast that never made it to Alien.

Then give it a 200M budget and 3 hour movie directed by Peter Jackson and John Carpenter input...

But alas.......................

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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BigDave
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one more thing about the Xeno....

 

We still do not know its full PURPOSE! 

That is up in the air for maybe future movies to explore, but Prometheus did give us some clues, that could lead us down a number of paths.

In Alien all we had was that there was some Eggs, that produce a Parasite that infected a Hist to produce a Organisms, whos aim was purely to procreate itself... in essense what we got was more like a FLY than anything else, simple as....

Aliens tried to show us that there was more to it than that and that while the Agenda is procreate its also that they do so in a hive, like how Termites, Bees and Ants do.

So Alien sets us down the path of a FLY, or Beetle...

Aliens down the path of a Bee or Ant...

Again the Alien deleted scene could show us maybe it dont create a Egg, but just stores a Hosts DNA in some kind of container that can be extracted some way, to the Space Jockeys Agenda..... thats one way to look at it.

But then again it could just be purely like Star Beast the final process to restart the procreation Cycle....

But then again it could tie in to Aliens, in that how Ants and Bees can create a Queen in a certain way when all Queens are dead or if there needs to be another, then again the Egg Morph could be a way to create a Queen... to me this makes the most sense to tie the whole franchise together.

But now we are left with WHERE DID THEY COME FROM ORIGINALLY... ? DID THE ENGINEERS CREATE THEM AND WHY?  and if not then WHY DID THE ENGINEERS HAVE A CONNECTION?  and finally WAS THE ENGINEERS ONLY USE FOR THEM AS A WEAPON?

These are the things that need answering once they are answered we dont need to see the Xeno again..

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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Something Real
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BIG DAVE - Yes! I've always wondered what the full purpose for the Xenomorph might be. It's one of those nice little brain teasers I like to play with while I work!
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djamelameziane
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:) I guessed this would be the response even though some of these people were praising james before he said this. Lol one of you love the film for being illogical :D ! But facts are facts time after time you hear this opinion and even when one of the most ah wait no the most successful director says it you still ignore it lol. Still hearing the in the future everyone will love it. Well actually we are in the future now and all I see is less support :O . Not that I'm a total hater but more of a disappointed fan of Scott. Has to be said that unfortunately Cameron is winning hands down in the money making department getting 7 times the amount prometheus made with an unknown film at the time (having no fan base unlike prometheus) called avatar no less. Even though I hated the story for that. Avatar being number one in the money making chart number two being Cameron's as well with titanic which is an awesome film aliens was amazing too through not great as alien. So yes you could think one of the best directors of all time who's made the most money and even directed an alien film is wrong and millions of people support the same idea but seriously wtf! but then again there's still some people that think earth was made in 7 days so I guess it's not so strange :p. Let's hope part 2 saves the day!

 "It's almost as if they are making it up as they go along" :D

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meshuggah
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Because we all know Avatar added up logically lol All Hollywood movies placed under close scrutiny never add up logically, what he's saying has no content at all. He liked the film overall though but to be fair Prometheus wasn't made to be self-contained, as it relies on a second installment for context. Avatar on the other hand is completely self-contained and has some pretty big flaws. I dare Cameron to speak to Scott about Prometheus. 

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meshuggah
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@dj Just because a negative opinion of Prometheus happens to be quite popular in many circles doesn't mean it's better than other opinions and vice versa, nor does Cameron making more money make his opinions have greater validity than others, you're making an ad populum fallacy. Prometheus operates on a very symbolic and ironic level thus it doesn't have to be entirely beholden to elementary logic. It's not a question of whether Cameron is wrong, he offered his opinion on the continuity, nothing more. Avatar falls apart under scrutiny, thus his comment is rather hypocritical. There is no definitive opinion on Prometheus, especially when questions were deliberately left unanswered, hence all the debate in the first place. Where there are well argued criticisms there are equally well argued counter-criticisms.

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djamelameziane
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Like I said I personally hated avatars story even though it was unbelievably well made in other ways. But you can't knock the fact that he does seem to be doing way better in selling cinema tickets and getting critics to like his films than Scott lately even though Scott I reckon has made way better films in his earlier carrier. And no you can't really knock much of the logic in alien were as pretty much all of prometheus you can but that takes us back into all the old threads so I won't being them up again! And it's very different when a film it's set in our universe as such and is trying to be realistic like prometheus because then we can actually say hmm no people don't act that way etc....and I was just pointing out that certain people have more weight in there observations like you might ask a doctor about your health or maybe the most successful director in history about a film lol! Funny stuff...

 "It's almost as if they are making it up as they go along" :D

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meshuggah
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Last I checked Prometheus takes place in the Alien universe where creatures subvert the rules of conservation of mass and where space is ruled by corporations. And who said Prometheus was trying to be realistic? The film operates on a mythic and ironic level thus it doesn't have to be limited by the strictures of realism. As for the dubious actions of the characters, that was exactly the point, why did people expect credible scientists? The movie was all about flawed and foolish characters confronting forces greater than them. No credible scientist would ever sign up to a years long journey into space without knowing why, especially if they knew the mission was based solely on the premise of cave scribbles and the hubris of a dying megalomaniac. The whole thing was a corporate funded farce, we sympathise with David because he is our audience surrogate, Lindelof wrote David as a counterpoint to the humans that Lindelof deemed to be 'morons'. Thus when people complain about the humans being stupid they don't seem to realise that that's exactly the point. 

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djamelameziane
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You       don't        think     prometheus.....was trying to be realistic    :O sorry my jaw just dropped to the floor ok that will explain everything no need to go on. LOL    

 "It's almost as if they are making it up as they go along" :D

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Batchpool
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I’ve nothing personal against Camerons’ films and he has done some good work. The way I see it, Cameron is critical of any film and we all need a hobby. Even if you have a film that wins higher acclaim than Avatar, he will find something wrong with it, or something that in his considered opinion needs improving on. Hurtlocker is a good example of that.

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HiveMinded
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What if each group has a different view of the universe, and the Alien’s place in it?

The androids might believe that the Alien is the “perfect organism”.

The Engineers seem to place a high degree of importance on the Alien in their artwork. It's a part of their culture, and plays a role in how their culture operates. Shaw and Holloway might have thought that the mural was depicting mythological beings, but the Engineer artwork is conveying information about how the Engineers view themselves, the alien, and the way things work. How they organize themselves etc. In some ways, the mural represents the Engineer view of the universe, and the Alien lifecycle etc. It's an attempt to convey meaning, much like the Sistine chapel.

The film suggests a ceremonial/ritual aspect to the way the Engineers setup that room. Fifield and Millburn ask if they worshipped the giant head as a god. The Engineer culture has their own beliefs about the universe and the alien, their own system of organization. Which is completely different than ours.

The artwork is like a cross-section of how the Engineers think. It can be analyzed to start learning about the people who created it. It has some sort of meaning to them, and the Alien is part of what they choose to believe..

We can't determine exactly what the typical Engineer view of the Alien or the universe around them is yet, or how their culture operates. That’s the thing that’s going to be the most different between Engineers and humans: how they think and why they think it.. I've mentioned that their genetics and physiology are a match for us. So they’re like us physically, and that puts certain constraints on them, as well as helps us frame them. However, we have no clue how they think. Nor do we know about their technological prowess. 

The engineer brain would perceive the world around them in a much different way. They've had more time to develop tech, but it's nothing we couldn't develop without time and access to similar resources. Technology is a growing body of knowledge, and each culture develops their own technology as a way to master their environment. Every single species is constantly modifying their surroundings, "building better worlds" for themselves, "we're the gods now"... Conservation of resources/energy is a constant struggle. There's no organism known to man that leaves zero impact on the environment... No man needs nothing. There are slight phenotypic differences, but no differences in genotype between humans and Engineers.  Engineers need resources too...

There's some form of energy that makes David "run". I think this android eats because he needs an energy source.. David hopes he's not made "too close" to humans. No other android eats... IMO sometimes the Alien needs to consume inorganic or organic material to grow, but needs less energy. It's rarely seen feeding, however there are indications that the Alien eats when it needs to grow... Very few things would grow in that desert, the worm is evidence that there was a little bit more than nothing in the desert.. Each species acts to preserve its own interest. The Alien is a survivor; it has survival instincts in it, like Shaw..A natural form of intelligence that's hard to quantify or qualify.

In the virals they give the crew an early assessment where their brains are being scanned. I think all the crewmembers were chosen specifically for being able to be manipulated; chosen specifically for not having enough logic in their heads...Shaw had survival instincts "in her" and David actually gave her a compliment, meaning that she was naturally smarter than the rest of the crew..

In the Spaights script, David says "you're all so stupid" and attacks Shaw. I think these characters are supposed to have "half a brain", they're supposed to be slightly illogical... Supposed to be able to be manipulated by Weyland's agenda; analyzing their subconscious minds is an extension of profiling & controlling what they're thinking about by bringing certain memories to the surface. David stimulates these memories at certain points. Holding onto and giving back the cross is part of a study he's running on Shaw's mind, and how the subconscious mind influences humans' actions.

David taking the cross away, then giving it back when Shaw survives, is a form of operant conditioning,...He hopes to lead her on the next stage of his adventure with his tricks... Weyland corp has deceived people throughout the whole series. The trick concept, tricking the brain back to life, deception and even self-deception could be a big part of this series by the end. "the trick is not minding that it hurts". Shaw follows her instincts and stands up to them. She takes the alien out of herself before they get a chance to freeze her. Shaw didn't know what would happen, she suspected something was up...Just like Ripley did. Shaw reacted instinctively and kept herself alive, David admires this form of intellect. She had no proof that Weyland corp was up to no good other than the weird way David was acting, She had a gut reaction to things... Her head wasn't doing the thinking.

Their psych profiles were taken in spaight's script. I think a lot from Spaight's script was simply moved into the background by Lindelof's script. Davis/David said Shaw/Watts has the highest IQ. The dream visor, the Happy birthday viral, and the crew interviews are possible evidence that even in Lindelof's script David and Weyland corp have been messing with and analyzing their minds, as well as perceiving things no one else can... There's a psychological component to this movie. Lindelof said he only changed things around so that the emphasis was on the Engineers. It's not straight forward, the subtext of the movie tells more story than the movie itself, and I can see how Lindelof steered it away from definitive answers, for now. David has to be juxtaposed with characters who act illogically because he sees himself as superior to us. He's driven by logic. He wants to be closer to the Engineers, because he perceives them to be the superior species. David was made in our image. Some of David's comments are a critque on humanity & human culture as a whole. That's what people might not get until the second movie... David's our male lead, and his perspective is important. That first crew was expendable, as are all others to Weyland corp, and David knew this going in. Shaw is our female lead. David isn't a side character, he's just as much the star of the series as Shaw. He's a driving force in the story now...If my theory pans out the next story is partially about how Androids perceive us to be illogical, and how David thinks he can gain his freedom from us by joining with the Engineers... He knew about Weyland's true agenda. The Aliens are pure, they're free of any delusions of morality and 'you don't see them screwing eachother over for a percentage". David's beliefs might be more inline with those of Engineers...Humans can be irrational and illogical at times because of their emotions. To err is human. and we learn from our mistakes. it's what makes us human, and David has made some mistakes..

On the surface things seem illogical because we're not seeing the full thought process that led to some of the actions, and we don't understand why the characters act as they do.... Figuring out their true inner characters, and their personality types, can help explain why each character acts certain ways, and what each of their agendas were.

I think Janek was chosen specifically because he "only flies the ship"...I believe they were selected for their minds have been conditoned by Weyland. As part of Weyland corp's "trick". David brings up psychology when he asks "doesn't everyone want to see their parents dead?". I think he's been analyzing their subconscious minds to better understand their personality profiles... That's why he was watching Shaw's dreams. Because of the areas of psychology that ties into. David doesn't believe Freud's psycho-analytic theory (to which he's referring); he has his own thoughts and observations on peoples' subconscious desires... Weyland corp has been studying the crews' minds to understand how to control them... They used Shaw's beliefs against her, and almost programmed her like a robot by bringing certain thoughts to the surface and leading her on this adventure. "Anyone with half a brain can create life". Shaw's eggs were infertile, she wasn't barren.. David wants to keep her around because she's the only one who has it in her...

Self-preservation is a psychological drive that all species share. There's often not a lot of logic to it  It's not always about surivial of the fittest; it's about survival of the most adaptable... The Alien's survival mechanisms make it the "perfect organism" according to Ash. The Alien has advantages that make it more capable of dealing with its surroundings and spreading its genetics.. Ash can be objective because he's not alive, not part of the natural order of things. David's "too close" to us because of his artificial emotions... David is able to intuit some things, and can use inductive reasoning.  Death is part of the natural order of things, and the Aliens are close to death. They fill a particular niche.

Ash has an outside perspective on which species is superior; he gives the Nostromo crew his sympathies because he knows this organism is perfectly adapted for ensuring the survival of its own species... Anything it views as "the other" or "alien" it will destroy and use as a resource. The facehugger & hammerpede stage display impressive regenerative capabilities. The facehugger heals quickly, Hammerpede can re-grow its own head -- which may be advantageous for any living species... Engineers would have all of our senses, but they perceive the universe around them in a different way because of their access to different experiences and data.

Engineer culture has completely different tech, beliefs, systems of knowledge, customs/social practices etc. There are many differences to explore in the way each culture views the Alien, and the way each organizes information about the universe. Conservation of matter and energy might be viewed in a different light by them, thanks to the Alien...  Engineer brains and bodies are wired in much the same way as humans because we can use our tech on them.. However, as mentioned we can't understand exactly how the Engineers think. We don't understand how they perceive the universe, why they wanted to destroy us OR how they perceive the Alien, and why they use it as part of their system of worship..

 

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Major Noob
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DJ, bottom line, I don't care what Cameron thinks and I don't care what you think. I care what I think, I enjoyed the film and JC talking down to it is not gonna magically erase that.

And please, don't substantiate his position with ticket sales. I'm also not impressed by pedestrian tastes, McDonald's is similarly successful, doesn't make it good, doesn't mean I'll be seeking McDonalds opinion on fine dining.

And yes, I don't need logic, at least not in a fantasy setting. Kinda the whole point, really.

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djamelameziane
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Don't need logic that kinda ends any argument lol! It could be a blank screen for 2 hours and if you don't need logic it's the best film ever lol. I prefer reality...I'm just still stunned that people could view it as not being a realistic film (or at least trying to be). Did you not see star maps from our universe references to points in our history actual dates in our future...earth...people supposedly acting like people in real life. It set in our future in this universe and trying not to step out side of our reality. Alien did this so well prometheus did not ...so many people believed they could actually be in alien it felt so real which is why it was so amazing its very hard to do. Prometheus doesn't even come close to that it feels like a film and hardly comes close to real....anyway like I said can't really argue with don't need logic lol! And yes Mc Donalds isn't fine dining it's addictive food and it does what is supposed to very well prometheus did not do what it's supposed to do and I'm afraid you don't even realise what it was supposed to be doing in the first place lol!

So to sum it up I'm guessing you think prometheus is fantasy and I'm thinking its sci fi I'm really struggling to find were you got that idea from lol!

 

 "It's almost as if they are making it up as they go along" :D

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