The FINAL Canon Debate

@Snork: What are you getting at with you last post? Where did you get your information from? The company name is very important. If Weyland Corp did dissolve after AVP, who is Peter Weyland buying the Certificate off? Well we know he got it from Companies House for his new company. That would mean that Weyland Corp in AVP would be finished. Although we were told by Charles Bishop Weyland that nothing drastic was going to happen to the company when he was gone. I think it’s crazy that a company that big would fall apart after one man dying. Are you saying that Weyland Corp in AVP is dead and the Weyland Corp in Prometheus is a different and new company? [i]Turns out corporate law allows a company to exist, and then falter, and a new company with the same name as the previous failed company to emerge.[/i] I’m pretty sure that there are restrictions in place to stop things like that happening. Well, you can have the name but to completely replicate a previous company, I’m not so sure. The timeline argument isn’t moot yet. Some other things here: At 36 seconds in on AVPR with the Tom Woodruff commentary: Tom Woodruff: we were brought in on this project obviously because of our history with the franchise , AVP franchise as well as the alien franchise. So they are separate then? At 02:36 minutes in AVPR with the directors commentary: Greg : this is the trophy room. We had fun there. If you look up on the right, there’s the space jockey. I think that’s a cousin of the jockey that was in Ridley’s movie. Colin: second cousin, I think. Yeah. Looks nothing like a Space Jockey (Engineer) skull. We all know what a Space Jockey (Engineer) looks like and they don’t look like that. Infact it isn’t even a skull it’s a helmet on a trophy wall for skulls. What’s even worse, that’s not how they look. At the end (1:30:45) of AVPR they say: (In reference to Yutani) (Directors) John: What is the linkage? Colin: well, the idea with this scene was to show how did the technology get so good by Alien? Greg: we seen Weyland in the last movie, so the idea was….. Now we’ve established Yutani, and that she’s some sort of evil corporate power. (Alec and Tom) Alec: well there is the one tag here with Ms Yutani. So we’ve seen Charles Weyland in the last film, who’s the father of modern robotics. We now know that all the technology is so good by Alien because of Peter Weyland. He and his Company created everything. AVPR is trying to say that Yutani developed the technology for space travel from reverse engineering predator technology. FTL Space travel was developed by Weyland industries. Keeping with the timeline, it says: [i]After years of litigation, Weyland wins the David patent lawsuit against the Japanese start-up Yutani Corporation, effectively protecting the investments of both Weyland Industries and its shareholders.[/i] (A startup company or startup is a company with a limited operating history. These companies, generally newly created, are in a phase of development and research for markets. start-up company: A new business venture that seeks private financing.) No way is Yutani going be considered a start-up company after 25 years. Another thing, in the AVP commentary Anderson says that he wanted casting continuity with the Alien films. He picked Bishop because he was an android in Aliens and Alien3. You have been saying that maybe Peter Weyland wrote Charles out of company history. You are also saying that Peter Weyland’s Company is different from Charles’ company. If that’s the case why would Peter Weyland’s company design an android based on someone wrote out of history or from another company?

Does by any chance think about that one scene in the beginning of Prometheus where the crew are briefed and they show the hieroglyphs matching up the idea of 'meeting our creator' I thought one of the hieroglyphs was used in AvP 1 the movie. So that would conflict with the AvP movie. As of writing this post I cant seem to remember 100% about the hieroglyphs though.

Xenomorphs were not created in the end of this movie. I can say that due to the panel seen by the Prometheus crew, where an xenomorph drone and a xenomorph queen are clearly visible. This movie doesn´t challenge the continuity, as the xenomorphs already existed before. Some clarification is needed, yet, to the xenomorph emerged from the dead alien, but it can be worked IMO.

alien resurrection was gash but it had some good ideas, its the first of the movies which display the xenos heightened intelligence and capability, showing they were not a hive mind creature.

Snorkelbottom May I ask to you a question ? AT THIS STAGE : 1 Have you found anything in or on the 3d blu ray that conclusively proves that avp and alien IS NOT in the same universe ? Does the signal Weyland discovered as was shown in the extras in any way prove that Yutani did not receive a predator shoulder mounted laser gun ? Would Yutani not have had a technological advantage over Weyland in technological development (because of reverse engineering the predator gun) and be ahead in space travel and weapons development meaning they should have discovered that signal beforE Weyland did ? I just wondered what your opinion might be on this .

Looks like we have a " loose cannon " on our hands.

I had watched the movie on Friday the 12th, I watched the movie with Ridley Scotts commentary. Ridley said during the movie that While working on the film he realized that he messed up with the location in which Prometheus took place. We know that Prometheus takes place on LV 223. Instead the movie was suppose to take place on LV 426 the moon. I believe he mentioned he did not change it because it was already set in stone(with budget im assuming). So Ridley Scott went from LV 426 being a moon, to then a planet, to then being called LV 223. Well considering if I have done the math correctly it seems to me that after making the movie ALIEN 33 years ago, Ridley would forget some things about when he made the film.

If you guys want, I can go back to double check that.

For those saying "thats canon for me" and the like - stop fooling yourself lol! you do not get to choose what is canon. You can say you like it or dislike it or love it or loathe it...just don't call your opinion a fact.

@Mr Tanker Lol I agree, a pred would own an engineer. Funny thing is, I'm 99% sure that the same actor played the main engineer and the predator =)

Its all cannon until a new movie contradicts it.

The whole Charles Bishop Weyland character in AVP was a retarded idea... because "Bishop II" in Alien 3 is, in fact, not a synthetic. In the extended cut, Lance Henricksen says he is not a droid, and there is no white blood. Unfortunately by leaving out this dialogue, it makes it difficult to tell if he is an android or not since the metal pipe seems to barely affect him. Maybe this was intentional in order to let the audience come to their own conclusion.

Also I recall reading an interview somewhere online, where Ridley Scott acknowledged that Aliens is canon with his own film.

@ N3cr0n0mIV, Have a link?

aloen movies 1-4 are canon and the avps arent canon to anything. predatyor is seperate from alien. period.i secind genjitsu17's avp 3 thing. but it would probably be screwed up if they tried. also, i thought of the funniest thing, i was watching prometheus and the part where the group of people go to look for fifield and milburn, there is a shot of shaw looking around and there is a red light that looks like a predators beam as if u were looking at the mechanism on his shoulder. imagine if that turned out to be something lol

@playbite: while watching the blu ray, i never heard ridley say anything like what you stated he said in his D.C. (unless i am misunderstanding what it is you are trying to say). @cuponator: the little red lights are from the crew members suits/gear etc. Without doubt...no predators in this film.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, but overlooked, there is no record that Charles Bishop Weyland is Peter Weylands father. Could CB be his uncle instead? In avp Cb has no children does he? Maybe Peter Weyland lands some inheritance and creates his own corporation. Maybe his uncle and father are twins. That would open up some flashback doors with Peter and his father, and bring Lance Henrikson into the prometheous timeline, and another paycheck. LOL! Hands up if thats just made you moan! LOL!

I think AVP would be good if it was sticking to the setting of the dark horse comics. 1. It should have taken place around the time of the Alien quadrology and not in the present time and definetly not on earth. 2. The first AVP was not gore enough for a movie that has Predators and Aliens. 3. While the Aliens exist in the Predator universe (Predator 2), I don't think that the Predators do in the ALIEN franchise.

both Ridley scott and James Cameron refused to touch the AVP series. its like combining frankenstien and chuckie and then inventing some half arsed story to link the two universes. atleast with Prometheus and Aliens the conection is consistant and if AVP was part of this universe the it would be Charles Weyland leading the expedition instead of Peter and charles cant be his father because he was a self taught engineer, it was peter weyland who founded the company. the first AVP happened in 2004 before Weylan industries was founded in 2012. because there are so many inconsitancies i think that it is not canon but a seperate series that borrows ideas off the Aliens franchise.

the thread called, Aliens: Colonial Marines to Prometheus? is revealing. my comments are worth looking at

[quote]Were they (hill and giler) really involved with the project at all or did they just lend the production rights?[/quote] The last film Giler, Hill and Carroll had anything to do with was Alien3. And by that point it seems Brandywine had ceased to exist in any meaningful way. The film was originally credited as 'A Phoenix Company/ Gordon Carroll Production'. They've got some sort of contract where Alien related stuff ends up with their names on.

NERDS!!!!!!!

Cypher, I suspect you'll enjoy my new "if David Cronenberg had made Aliens" thread. :)

i liked the story of avp

Here's how I see it and Ridley Scott has said this multiple times. Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, Alien Resurrection and Prometheus are Alien films. ALONE. They have NOTHING to do with Predator or any other lifeform or person. If thats the case and those films are based either on the origin of the Aliens or the Aliens themselves than Those 5 films ALONE are the Alien films and nothing else. Those 5 films are what make up the "Alien" franchise because they are soley based either on the origin of the Alien species/space jockey like Prometheus or they are based ONLY on the Alien themselves NOT anything out of that realm like the Predator films. The Predator franchise is its own thing because it is based solely on the Predators. Predator, Predator 2 and Predators make up the Predator franchise. I know there was an Alien skull in Predator 2 but that was NOT the focus of the film. The Predator itself was. The AVP films are based in a universe where BOTH the Aliens and the Predators clash. That story is its OWN universe because it focuses on A story that makes both species in a war. It has nothing to do with Ripley, It doesn't focus JUST on the Aliens so its not an ALIEN film. Its an AVP film. And Alien vs. Predator and Aliens vs. Predator Requiem are in their own universe.

@Gavin aka Snorkelbottom; You said and quote "@ necronom 4... - Ask Ridley - he doesn't own any rights, he is just a director, - Ask Dan O'Bannon - firstly, he's dead and secondly, he even suggested an idea that Predator was another stage of the Aliens lifecycle. - Ask "the bloke who created Predator" - Don't you mean blokes, as in plural... Jim & John Thomas. If Dan O Bannon said that i'll eat my socks and I don't wash them very often, so that's how serious I am!

"Here's how I see it and Ridley Scott has said this multiple times. Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, Alien Resurrection and Prometheus are Alien films. ALONE. They have NOTHING to do with Predator or any other lifeform or person. If thats the case and those films are based either on the origin of the Aliens or the Aliens themselves than Those 5 films ALONE are the Alien films and nothing else. Those 5 films are what make up the "Alien" franchise because they are soley based either on the origin of the Alien species/space jockey like Prometheus or they are based ONLY on the Alien themselves NOT anything out of that realm like the Predator films. The Predator franchise is its own thing because it is based solely on the Predators. Predator, Predator 2 and Predators make up the Predator franchise. I know there was an Alien skull in Predator 2 but that was NOT the focus of the film. The Predator itself was. The AVP films are based in a universe where BOTH the Aliens and the Predators clash. That story is its OWN universe because it focuses on A story that makes both species in a war. It has nothing to do with Ripley, It doesn't focus JUST on the Aliens so its not an ALIEN film. Its an AVP film. And Alien vs. Predator and Aliens vs. Predator Requiem are in their own universe." This is correct although I may add that the AVP films are terrible, and therefore is not the "real" AVP the real AVP was, was the comics and books but they are beyond convoluted to the point of no-return. And so it is up to the AVP comic reboot to step up to the plate and make a good AVP-Verse.

Its like i have said before, i had nothing against a AVP being Canon... If it was done right and by that the events of the movie should had been set after the events of at least Alien 3 and maybe Alien Resurrection. Pretty much the same as the AVP PC Games. If they rebooted it, then it could work..... I would like to think the current AVP franchise is more Canon to Predator and Predator 2 and Predators than Alien and Aliens etc. Purely down to Timeline of Events...

What we all need to realize here is that our opinions on the matter, whether we want the two franchises to be in the same universe or not is that, undeniably, they are. Even if AvP and AvP:R were both under par films for the legendary franchises, it and books, comics and games have happened and put both species together in the same canon. To refute against this by saying they are just 'what if' scenarios is to say that the movies, comics, games and etc. do not exist. They do and whether you like it or not that fact will not change.

I certainly don't have the definitive answer as to what is canon! When I first heard about AVP I was really excited and looked forward to the merger. After seeing AVP I left the cinema totally deflated and disappointed, what a wasted opportunity!

I won't even bother to comment on Requiem!! *shudders*

What I do know is this; had the AVP movies been as good as ALIEN or Predator then we would all happily include or accept them as such. It's because they fell so short of the mark that most of us are totally reluctant to even consider them as canon! AVP reboot anyone? David Cronenberg at the helm?