The FINAL Canon Debate

@ etb If Charles Weyland died and as a result the company dissolves, another Weyland could found a new company with the same name in the future. So the Weyland corp can be founded in 2012 without contradicting the avp crossover. We don't know what happened in the missing 8 years. I make this point simply to show one of many possible arguments to explain why what is what. Alienamberclad had a good point..writers will not directly contradict other authors material probably so as to not create a rift in relationships. That being said, if fox wants to eliminate any relationship between pred and alien universe, writers can simply never write a crossover again...job done. If they want to, they certainly can write future parallels without contradicting previous storylines and pull it off...it all depends on the writing and directing IMO. I have not jumped ship on my feelings about alien and pred universe, but what's done is done and they do not have to revisit it again if they choose not to. Talking the canon topic, although a little agressive at times, is a good way to learn new stuff or form new opinions...sometimes help to firm up existing perceptions. I have argued on the topic of whether or not the queen is canon. Some say yes and some say no cuz of the Brent Dallas alien dcut scene. I understand why people would like that to be the reproductive process, but the introduction of the queen IMO negates the cut scene. In this thread(and other threads) Svanya uses the opinions of Scott and Cameron as basis for dismissing AvP and if we're to put that kind of weight on Cameron's opinions, than I guess we have to accept his queen. Going back to the Weyland timeline issue...is there not one parallel we can draw between the two Weyland Corporations to explain things? Do they explain anything about Peter Weylands father and could Charles be his father?

Ehh..scratch that...Peters father was a software engineer, not a billionaire industrialist like Charles....

Snork.....Why would you even use information from the timeline for your argument when you've just questioned its validity to begin with? As to your point about Weyland's cure for cancer and Ripley's daughter dieing of cancer not jiving......the timeline states the following: "Scientists from the Health Division identify the genetic chain of events for [b]98%[/b] of cancers. Using genetically-altered cells as well as elements found beyond Earth’s heavens, Weyland successfully deploys an effective cure for [b]almost[/b] all cancers." That's 98% of cancers they were able to cure, not all of them and besides, her daughter was an old woman, there's no reason we cannot accept that her body was just too frail to survive despite the cure. That happens in medicine all the time. As to whether the powerloader looks the same or not...who cares? Whether the powerloader is improved upon or not in the 123 years after its invention is not going to call into question the logical validity of anything pertinent to the C.B. Weyland argument. Anyway, the text you provided states that it "improved workplace safety by 300%" since its introduction. What needs improving there? If it ain't broke, don't fix it..... weylandindustries.com is as much a part of [i]Prometheus[/i] as anything we learn in the film. It would follow that the writers and the director would be responsible for that material as it was their idea to found the site as part of the marketing campaign. Now, if you're going to throw all that out, then throw out the TED Talk, the David 8 infomercial, the Shaw vid-mail to Weyland. Throw all of it out or else we're being hypocritical. There is no reason to discount any of it; especially the TED Talk as it clearly displays an origin for David's fascination with [i]Lawrence of Arabia[/i], which is a point of real importance in his character development. And let's not forget that the TED Talk is a part of that timeline as well, validating the timeline. The Film validates the TED Talk by way of the [i]Lawrence of Arabia[/i] connection and the TED Talk then validates the timeline by its inclusion on it. Period.... And I find it interesting that now, somehow, we went from arguing the points of the timeline and how they fit into the canon reconciliation debate to questioning their relevance at all. We can't just start throwing things out because we don't like what they infer or insinuate about what is or isn't part of this universe anymore. Here's the rub.......Fox produced [i]Prometheus[/i], Fox funded the marketing campaign, the marketing campaign establishes a history to the [i]Alien[/i] canon that negates the [i]AVP[/i] chronology as part of the franchise going forward. What [i]Prometheus[/i] ultimately does here is establish a semi-reboot of the franchise, establishing [i]Prometheus[/i] alongside the four [i]Alien[/i] films and forgeting the [i]AVP[/i] films as nothing more than sideshows. Ultimately, Fox greenlit [i]Prometheus[/i], Fox authorized the marketing approach and thereby validates what it establishes to the public.....and where that becomes important is in its information about Peter's origins and the lack of any mention of C.B....that is everything here. Incidentally, why haven't you countered any of the points I made about C.B. and Peter in my last post?

I just want to say in all three alien flims's there's mention of YUtani"" in the Predator movie inside there ship there's xeno skulls ethier way you look at this topic there's going to be back blow or disagreement Weyland-Yutani if they didnt have something to do with one another why mention them in both flim's????????????????????????????

@XeNoFan, as far as Yutani is concerned, again on the timeline, After years of litigation, Weyland wins the David patent lawsuit against the Japanese start-up Yutani Corporation, effectively protecting the investments of both Weyland Industries and its shareholders. December 12, 2029 The Yutani Corporation is referred to as a START-UP. The definition of a start-up company or start-up is 1. A company that is in the first stage of its operations. These companies are often initially bank rolled by their entrepreneurial founders as they attempt to capitalize on developing a product or service for which they believe there is a demand. 2. A startup company or startup is a company with a limited operating history. These companies, generally newly created, are in a phase of development and research for markets.

I find it amazing that you all have this level of clarity about all the pertinent details pertaining to plot details in the films and production rights! Amazing, great lessons certainly to be learned from reading these posts. Honestly I never really judged any of the individual films on whether they were part of the entire cannon. I enjoyed parts of most of the films purely from a subjective point to get entertainment value from good production and my suspension of disbelieve. I do want to state though that I take it seriously that when you produce something you do so to further the franchise as a whole and not to make just some petty some of money because you have the rights to show the Xenomorph “Alien” creature in your production. I am with everyone on this one. You produce something worthy of the beginnings that do right by the originators of this Canon or you just do not produce it. It makes the producers rip off artists for getting us into the theaters and us fools for wasting our time watching there far removed at best half slopped together films. I take everyone’s comments seriously. You would not have all taken the time to write these pertinent commentaries had you not believed so much so in the original creation or canon. I personally hatted all of the AVP movies and the fourth Alien film, Alien Resurrection. There are some cool parts to some of these films but for the most part it is my opinion that they only severed to make a fast buck for certain interested parties and left us the loyal fans screwed over. As for whether I think AVP films are part of the Alien canon I am not exactly sure. Parts of the AVP films make an attempt to link both of these franchises and at times have plot holes too big to link them with absolute certainty. I think the best we can do here is watch what we think we like and get some entertainment value out of it. Feeling dejected by greedy producers and writes is a waste of time and futile. They do not care what real consumers of these narratives think otherwise they would have never produced most of these other off-shoots of the main story of Alien. We would have had plots and movies that pertained specifically to the Alien story line and that would have been perfectly fine had they produced those types of films with the right production value and creativity. They have sold us all out that is for sure. Even Prometheus has too many plot holes and inconsistences to reboot or save the franchise. I thought the scene where the biologists try to reanimate the decapitated Engineer head to be one of the best pieces of fine art I have ever been able to view. I have been to many museums, read many great works of literature and that was a fine master work of art. It was almost completely ruined by the scientist just sitting on a chest full of scientific equipment slugging away at a bottle of liquor. I would have edited him completely out of the scene of course because it is just distracting from the genius of the rest of the scene. Prometheus is a great looking film as far as special effects. It lacks a greater continuity and it is as if Ridely had envisioned a lot more but could not execute on it properly. Ridley Scott is a great director; however, this is not his finest work nor his worst. Lets wait until the next film before we pass any really damning judgment. As I said before I am not sure how to really tie all these movies together. The producers of these AVP films have made movies that allow the first time movie viewer to enjoy what has been filmed for an individual performance. If they make enough money from that production I do not think the producers really care if it completely relates to the original Alien canon.

I'm playing Devils Advocate here but I found this on Xenopedia. http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Daniel_large/AVP_films_are_non-canon I realise that this is far from "evidence" but it is certainly relevant to the topic. Please don't shoot the messenger - I for one think a lot of the arguments presented on this link are ridiculous but, again, I'm only adding this to contribute to the debate.

http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Daniel_large/AVP_films_are_non-canon It cut my link, the dastard.

IT DID IT AGAIN!!! ARGH! the last bit should say AVP_films_are_non-canon. Sorry folks.

Engineer Tech Brett...I'm totally with you.... Pointblank...I'm with you on that also.....very good points Nrlfetmefan......thanks for this..."Peters father was a software engineer, not a billionaire industrialist like Charles"....it saved me from having to do so....that's a major issue in the whole C.B. Weyland versus Peter Weyland debate. allinamberclad.....I loved this....."What that objective would require, in actual practice, is that one Author would publicly denounce another Author's work as invalid: when neither of them own the Property under discussion and where the one Author has a relationship he wants to maintain with the Owner of the Property - he being a Studio - and also a professional reputation and personal life he probably wants to be kept free of bad blood, prima-donna drama, and ridiculous in-fighting... surely, this is an impossible position? Furthermore, the objective seems to be setting a , "burden of disproof" - which does seem a little cart-before-the-horse, to me, but, nevertheless: in respect of both these things, I can't help think that @Svanya, with her usual economy, has plotted the best and soundest course - assuming you give additional weight to the opinions of those Author's with original or earliest interest in terms of defining the basis of canon, [which would seem reasonable], and also make an allowance for the diplomacy that will necessarily be required in the delivery of those opinions, [which would seem sensible and discriminating] - surely the objective is as good as answered?" As for me, I posted this recently and I think it's relevant........ "I've been here on this site for a long time now and have been involved in more CANON fights than I care to even think about, but here's the rub........through all of it, every swash-buckling, splintered bickerfest, I've settled on something I find interesting: The term canon is less clincal and finite a term than is ever meant with its use. We bandy it about as Gospel and that Gospel is almost ALWAYS of a fundamentally different nature than that of our neighbor's...i.e. My Alien Gospel is not yours, yours is not mine and we are all of us together..different. Why does any of this matter? Why? Why do we sit here, sanctimoniously bickering back and forth like tenured professors in the field of Alien lore? It all lies with the original film. Alien is the one true source and the rest is up to each individual fan expert in Alien lore. This notion that, "After all, by definition, everything that Fox produces with an Alien in it would be canon," is entirely ridiculous. Are we going to believe that if FOX produced a film where the aliens learned to talk, any serious fan would accept that as canon? Are we to believe that if FOX produced a buddy film where an alien xeno was partner to a city cop and helped solve crimes in a distant post-apocalyptic wasteland, that we would accept that? Of course not; of course those examples are ridiculous, but the principle stands. Just because FOX releases something with an alien does not give it automatic credibility. What I'm getting at here is that film is like no other artistic medium. You're dealing in each case with a massive collaborative effort that is almost never the result of a sole individual's credit. Therefor, sequels, unless carried out by the same artistic minds and team, are in another realm than the original. That is not to say they are not valid; they are, but as all of this pertains to this word we seem so obsessed with, canon, there seems to be only one way to ultimately look at it: Canon pertains only to a complete work as defined by a single artistic mind or group/team of minds in the production of that work. In the case of Alien, the original is the begining and end of where this term canon applies. As fans, we have every right to to define our feelings on where that extends beyond the original, but officially, we can only honestly apply that term in refference to what was defined by O'Bannon, Shussett, Scott and the producers at Brandywine in the original film. Remove those original minds as a team from any later project and you remove any clinical, legitimate connection to the term canon. As an example to counter, The Lord of the Rings trilogy and The Hobbit films to come have all been adapted from works of the artistic mind of a single individual, J.R.R. Tolkien and adapted by a single group/team of filmmakers in Peter Jackson, the producers and so on. You can, in this case define the five films together as film canon, not literary, for that reason; one team creating one world within a single artistic vision as adapted from another's literary vision. In the case of the Alien Franchise, the same cannot be said. You have one film, the original Alien, and then everything else, directed by a number of different individuals, all with different takes, different writers, etc....the sequels, the books, the comics, the AvP mash-ups; all of it being peripheral material, each existing only as subjective preference for each individual fan to define for him or her self. This is a principal I believe exists as a universal constant in art: Canon officially extends only as far as the original vision of one mind or a team of minds as expressed in a final product. For us, officially.....canon must be and only can be defined as what pertains to the original, Alien.....beyond that, it's subjective, of personal opinion, and for each of us, just the way we see it...and that's all well and good the way it is."

@craigamore Cheers, I have to admit I have really enjoyed this debate with Snorkel. I relished the challenge. Snorkel fairly pushed me hard to back up my view, to the point that I now know how to set up a corporation hahahaha. To be fair to Snorkel there is a lot of evidence to back up the AVP side but it’s definitely not the side I’m on. Im with Prometheus on this one.

@Snorkel, so where do we stand? Have i managed to convince you? Are we going to continue the debate? Agree to disagree?

@Snorkelbottom, I visited the Weylandutani web site and saw the timeline there. I just enjoyed reading the web site because I liked the android character so much in Aliens. I really cannot decide whether all these movie fit into one canon. Like you said there is a lot of evidence in the movies themselves to suggest that they at least try to make them relate to one another. Although for the record I want to state that I think most of the AVP movies were complete crap and the last Alien film was complete BS! Also, I have read a lot of the books on the Aliens and they differ quite a bit as to what and where the aliens really come from and the Engineers. Snorkelbottom what makes me angry most of all is that these directors had good budgets to work with and could have stuck to better standards when making these movies but they did not and so we have what we have. Believe me I am still a hard core Sci-Fi Alien loving fan to this day and I want the franchise to continue. So what it does come down to when you are producing these movies is keeping this whole thing together. Once you splinter it the audience becomes just as conflicted as we are right now and it causes problems. Honestly Snorkelbotom Ridley is just getting us warmed up for the real movies he will produce. Enough money has come in from Prometheus that they now cannot pass up sequals…they are planning even better special effects right now and hopefully a plot that makes has better continuity. I do not think we should underestimate Ridley just yet because he is going give us a movie that shows us who and what these Engineers really are. The implications of this type of plot are endless and completely unpredictable. I know you what to have this whole thing work together in a way that makes viewing all the movies make sense but unfortunately too much time has passed and too many other people have gotten ahold of the rights to produce these films. I have faith in Ridley that he will make this right in the next movie. When I was younger I used to love to paint. Now at best I admire or appreciate the works of other artists. I know what I like and so do you. Hopefully we will get lucky and Ridley will deliver something more of his real directing and producing capabilities in the sequel to Prometheus. Snorkelbottom sometimes you these things are so complex even the directors, writers, and producers cannot agree on how to produce a movie because the franchise has fractured so much. They do the best they can. We cannot honestly say that they all wanted to ruin our movie experience, produce something of inferior quality, make sure that we would never go see another film, and ruin the entire franchise. This is not what they had in mind. They maybe tried to give us the best they could give with the budget they had and I think they did a pretty good job with Prometheus. I know I could not have done better.

The argument can't end here....thAT would not be any kind of fun I've ever known or would care to...the show must go on.......that's it....have at it then......

@ ETB... No offense but the challenge remains unanswered. Yes you have stated, or should I say reiterated information found on weylandindustries.com. And although your arguments have been well thought and implemented they do not detract away from the point that Weyland Industries and Weyland Corp first appeared in AVP. Yes I know what it says on the timeline on the aforementioned site but the evidence is there for all to see, and I am sure that, as some have theorised and postulated, there would be a viable way for CB Weylands company(s) to have been later legally "recognized". Yes this is hypothetical speculation and theory, but I remind you that nothing on the website, or in the film Prometheus directly contradicts anything "put forward" in the 2 AVP films. If that means agree to disagree on your terms then so be it, but remember - if the intention of the website was to retcon the AVP films from continuity, then why use the same company names, have the CEO be born before CB Weylands death, with Weyland as his last name and with Yutani as a competitor... the makers of Prometheus changing one or all of those aspects would have erased the AVP films from continuity and thus this argument would be mute, but they did not. Also may I be inclined to say something... I have seen a lot of people calling Prometheus venomously or defending Prometheus naively. Lets be bluntly honest Prometheus is not a masterpiece, and it is also not a plothole ridden cesspool (the film only contains one plothole). Prometheus is what it is; a dark sci-fi adventure film, nothing more, nothing less. It is a film that started out as a direct prequel (which if made "fans" would be calling it for being another Alien film, and inconsistent), that was changed to become something more ambiguous (too ambiguous for many, not enough for some), using a whole host of unused, recycled ideas from Alien. Alien was never a masterpiece, hell it was Ridleys second ever movie. Alien is also what it is; the right people, in the right place at the right time made a movie in the right way. It is no masterpiece, there are more errors in Alien than in Prometheus. Yet they are accepted through rose tinted spectacles. Then we get to the core of what this thread is about "canonicity", and what does and doesn't qualify as canon. Despite all the to and fro's in this debate, be it in this thread or others on this or other forums it always boils down to 4 options... - The Original, those that consider Alien as the only canon - Preference, those that consider what they like as canon - Franchise, those that only consider the Alien films and Prometheus as canon - The Whole, those that consider everything as canon (Predator/AVP/Prometheus/Alien) ...And no matter how many times the debate is aired or invited into discussion not one of the four above definitions is settled upon, because of the subjectivity of everyones opinions. If FOX turned around tomorrow and declared the AVP films as non-canon I would gladly accept it along with those that would cherish the declaration. But until that time I prefer to look at all 10 films as installments within one large franchise, set within one universe... Why? Because it opens up possibilities and choices for the narrative. Because it gives this fictional universe different shades than just those stagnated colors of the original, mother franchises. Because, like Shaw said in Prometheus, its what I choose to believe.

I still want to say In AVPR they at least attempted to show us the Predator's home world.I think it's about Dang time we see the Xeno's HOmeworld..I think Everyone would Agree to that...Hopefully the seaquel does this or something???? I like both series and I'll continue to like them regardless of wether or not they're all connected..In my mind they Exsist within the same Universe as far as the COMPANY...Obviously Weyland knew of the Alien"" Yutani knew of the Predator'' So weyland bought out Yutani thus working together to build better Worlds... It all might be hint's or nod's too the comics,novel's,games etc that's why it appears in the later film's or cross-over's( avp, avpR A4) but whatever the case the card's fell where they did there is not much to do now other then Enjoy the film's for What they are Worth.........And im searching for it now.. There is a Alien's comic where a Spacejockey gets facehugged but the creature is not the deacon sooooooo.....This can go on forever Honestly..........

"there are more errors in Alien than in Prometheus." Really Snork? Really? [i]Prometheus[/i] has far more problems with its logic than [i]Alien[/i] ever has and to suggest that the latter has more holes in it than the former is beyond ridiculous. With all do respect my friend, [i]Alien[/i] is a masterpiece and to suggest that [i]Prometheus[/i] is at all superior is unfounded and beyond the pale.

I'm not touching this debate, lol, not even with a ten foot pole! (avp is not canon, shhh!) : )

@snorkel, happy days the debate continues. Before I start, I have to use the website for now because I can’t put Prometheus on and watch so it’s all I have at the minute. That being said, I have two points about the website I would like to state. 1. The videos on the site have characters from the film in them (Weyland’s TED talk and Shaw’s interview). They aren’t in the film but are a part of the film much like a trailer would be (I say like a trailer because you get scenes in trailers which aren’t in the final film). 2. When I was on the site I happened to look at Legal. It’s under ABOUT THE MISSION on the dropdown menu of the main page. When I hovered over legal, it brought up the films legal information. Not information about the site but the information for the film. Since the website falls under the films legal remit then it is a part of the film. It may not be in the film but the website itself and everything in it is a part of it. So, everything on that website is about the film. None of it is fanmade, it is all legit and is the internal information about the film you don’t get to see on the screen. Like I said before it was done for gaining more hype and fans for the release. Now you say : [i]…..if the intention of the website was to retcon the AVP films from continuity, then why use the same company names, have the CEO be born before CB Weylands death, with Weyland as his last name and with Yutani as a competitor... the makers of Prometheus changing one or all of those aspects would have erased the AVP films from continuity and thus this argument would be mute, but they did not.[/i] To be honest there’s a lot they could have said or done to retcon AVP. They did tell us that the company was founded after 2004 (AVP), 8 years later in 2012. According to Weyland Industries/Prometheus timeline, Weyland corp/industries didn’t exist before 2012.The two are not compatible whatever way you look at it. It may not have been said on a screen but that’s what the owners of Prometheus are telling you. On the subject of CB Weyland dying and the company falling apart in which Peter Weyland can resurrect the company. In AVP CB Weyland was worried about dying and not leaving his mark in history. The events of AVP are his way securing his name in the history books. He knew everything would just move on and nothing much would change. He even says: [i]"You know, when you get sick, you think about your life and how you're going to be remembered. You know what I realized would happen when I go? A ten percent fall in share prices. Maybe twelve. And that's it. I need this." [/i] Now a company can go into dissolution and then have a court-ordered restoration with the same name. I got this from a website developed by Companies House. [i]The general effect of restoration is that the business is deemed to have continued in existence as if it had not been dissolved or struck off the register. [/i][u][b][/b][/u] That means they would still have to publish records dating before and after the company winding down. One thing I will agree on is that it is ultimately up to ourselves to decide what we do and what we don’t want as canon. There is no official statement like you said on what is and isn’t. If they did say that Predators are canon with Alien then I would accept that.

@ ETB... No offense but you have got caught up in one singular aspect that you believe retcons AVP out of continuity with Alien and Prometheus - Weyland Corporation/Industries. Although I understand the perspective you seem to be taking with this argument you are unfortunately missing the point... If regarding Prometheus and its viral marketing they had... - Stated Peter Weyland was born after August 2005 (which would have made him 89 in the movie and thus more plausible). - Stated that the companies name had never been Weyland Corporation/Industries. - Stated that the company itself maybe existed before that shown in AVP. - Shown Yutani as an associate, possibly even a Japanese branch of Weylands company. ...Then it would be clear that CB Weylands and Peter Weylands companies were unrelated and thus AVP had been retconned out of existence. This is not the case and thus the AVP movies still remain in contention. It does not state on the site that Weyland Corporation was founded in 2012, it states that is when it was recognized in the US/UK, the company could well have existed beforehand. Now to the endless referring of Corporate law and legislation. These things are governed by one thing and one thing only - money. Could a fathers company go under only to be resurrected by his son, with the son claiming he founded it, if his wallet is deep enough then yes. Is it possible that a company can ignore or rewrite entire elements of its past, if their wallet is deep enough then yes... - Is there any mention on Coco Cola's website that at the turn of the twentieth century there cold drinks products contained the ingredient Cocaine (hence the Coca in their name)? - Is there any mention on the Warbutons website that in the same time period they employed child labor? - Is there any mention on the Nike/Adidas webistes that their products are produced by child labor? - Is there any mention on Tesco's website that their "Everyday Value" baked beans are sourced from discarded "Branded" suppliers? ...the answers would be NO. Why? Corporate image and marketing, bought with cold hard cash.