The FINAL Canon Debate

@ Engineer Tech Brett... Your statement regarding Weyland Industries founding is often misrepresented. Here is a screencapture from the corporate timeline featured on the website [url=https://www.weylandindustries.com/#]weylandindustries.com[/url]... [img]http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj75/ladon76/101112.png[/img] Note the first line says "Weyland Corporation is recognized as a legal entity...". I repeat Weyland Corporation is recognized, not Weyland Industries. Nowhere in this text is the name Weyland Industries mentioned. It is clearly stated above that Peter Weyland is the founder and CEO of Weyland Corporation. The Founder and CEO of Weyland Industries is clearly shown in AVP to be Charles Bishop Weyland. Now some have argued that Weyland Industries is the incorporated name of Weyland Corporation, when it could simply be the same company portrayed in AVP which has been dissolved into Peter Weylands company - Weyland Corporation. Which brings me to a simple point - If the intention was to ret-con the sheer possibility of the AVP's being considered canon why use the name "Weyland Industries" (which first appeared in 2004's AVP), why not use another name such as Weyland Incorporated/Technologies/Limited etc. Using the name Weyland Industries only supports the AVP's as existing within the same universe as Prometheus and Alien. The rabbit hole deepens. Here is the Weyland Industries logo as seen sparodically on concept art in the Art of Prometheus book... [img]http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/187/d/e/weyland_industries_by_weylandyutaniassoc-d569ubu.png[/img] And here is the Weyland Industries logo as seen in AVP... [img]http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/WrestlingCentral/Patches-AlienWeyland-YutaniCorp.jpg[/img] Very similar wouldn't you agree? Furthermore if the intention was to ret-con AVP out of the Prometheus/Alien universe, wouldn't it have been more plausible for Peter Weyland to have been born after 2005, eliminating any possibility of 2004's AVP character Charles Bishop Weyland of being Peter Weylands father. Which could have further been disassociated by simply having Peter Weyland have a different hair/skin colour, or even the possibility of Weyland being the first name of the CEO and founder Weyland Corporation. Why follow the example set beforehand with AVP. This also extends to the Yutani Corporation. Originally, Ron Cobb saw the Weyland-Yutani Corporation as not a merger of two rival companies but a partnership of two wealthy individuals and friends. So why with Prometheus did Ridley Scott and his team not follow the idea of Ron Cobb, giving Sir Peter Weyland a wealthy friend and partner, but instead and again follow the example set beforehand in AVPR, by showing the Yutani Corporation as a competitor... [img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Hfx51LmXxbc/T7PBES-hzcI/AAAAAAAAIEs/vbp7nrosDeE/s1600/here.jpg[/img] @ Dusty... As mentioned by both Engineer Tech Brett and Nrlfetmefan (strange name), the derelct Engineer craft was forced to land with its cargo of Alien eggs on LV-426 thousands of years before the events depicted in the movie. Therefore the Alien has been in existence for thousands of years, at least, most likely much longer. The Deacon seen in Prometheus is not the first Alien, it is an example of a first generation Alien. @ Nrlfetmefan... You are right, the writers and directors have no say regards canon. This responsibility is ultimately left in the hands of those that own the intelectual property, but that is split between Brandywine Productions (David Giler and Walter Hill) whom own the production rights to the Alien creature and anything set within the Alien universe, and between FOX whom own the distribution rights. Not only have both been involved in Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, Alien Resurrection, AVP, AVPR and Prometheus, but both refuse to make any official statement either way regarding the canonicity of what does and does not exist within the fictional universe established by 1979's Alien. @ David 1... You state that you only view Alien as canon, now also assuming that you consider Prometheus as canon explain this reference also found on the website [url=https://www.weylandindustries.com/#]weylandindustries.com[/url]... [img]http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4ljfyWUgC1qa1o5zo1_500.jpg[/img] Also David 1 and allinamberclad... The Emperor/Darth Sidious does not feature in Star Wars Episode IV A New Hope, is he therefore not canon, despite appearing in every other Star Wars movie. The challenge I see remains unresloved, is there no official word from FOX themselves stating the franchises of Predator, AVP, Promtheus and Alien are not set in the same fictional universe. Because I am afraid that until one is found/made, and proven to be genuine that there is more evidence stating that these franchise do exist in the same fictional universe, than there is against it. With those that refute the idea doing so by their own, subjective opinion.

I thought that I read somewhere a while back that when Cobb came up with the original company name, he took Leyland Toyota and changed them to Weylan Yutani. Weylan without the d. In the original alien film, was it Weylan or Weyland? If it was Weylan, why not use this as a little way of saying,"Hey viewers, disregard all the other movies except Alien." *my name is dumb...didn't put any thought into it when I signed up, it's shorthand for "near lifetime fan". I'm 38 and I've loved everything alien for 30 years. ;)

@ Snorkel, If you read on in the paragraph from the Weyland site it says that they recieve a Certificate of Incorporation from the Companies House in the United Kingdom. A certificate of incorporation is a legal document relating to the formation of a company or corporation. (A Birth Certificate) A Corporation is an association of individuals, created by law or under authority of law, having a continuous existence independent of the existences of its members, and powers and liabilities distinct from those of its members. Corporations generally have a distinct name. Historically, some corporations were named after their membership: for instance, "The President and Fellows of Harvard College." Nowadays, corporations in most jurisdictions have a distinct name that does not need to make reference to their membership. In Canada, this possibility is taken to its logical extreme: many smaller Canadian corporations have no names at all, merely numbers based on a registration number (for example, "12345678 Ontario Limited"), which is assigned by the provincial or territorial government where the corporation incorporates. It is a Corporation but its called Weyland Industries and didn't form until 2012.

The name of the company is the Weyland Corporation, as evidenced here... [img]http://www.outlawcustomdesigns.com/product_images/f/429/Aliens_Weyland_Corp_Logo_Name__37814_zoom.jpg[/img]

Snorks: I say ALIEN is THE "canon" for being the original story. Obviously it has references there to other Alien movis, such has David shooting a basketball, the vehicles, the mercs, etc. But: There is NO REFERENCE AT ALL to predators. Not even cloaked ones. See my point?

@ David 1 - well taking into account that Predator wasn't released until 1987, that's not much of a surprise really is it.

Perdon my ignorance, but how do we know that ship has been there for over two thousands, exactly? Perhaps I have missed a quote or two from Scott... I think the Industries/Corporation issue is a false trail. Seems like a minor difference to me, without any significance to the story. I would dare to state that I think Scott considers Alien vs. Predator movies a joke and will not think twice in case he puts something in Prometheus sequel that would directly contradict those two. They do seem to click for now, as Weyland in Prometheus might knew about the incidents from 2004, which involved his ancestors, and thus supported Shaw's mission when he heard about her discovery, hoping it's a chance to find those species. One more thing regarding canon is, I keep reading that Aliens: Colonial Marines claims itself to be a part of the franchise's canon, a true sequel to Cameron's Aliens, while apparently taking place on LV-426. We all know that a huge explosion took place there and wiped out the base (the game takes place in the base's ruins, which would have evaporated after a nuclear blast, wouldn't they?), we know Sulaco took off and caught fire much, much later on, after reaching Fiorina 161 (the game shows Sulaco on fire, crashing on LV-426, along with another vessel of the same model as Sulaco), which makes the game storyline condradict with both Aliens and Alien 3 storylines. Am I right on this?...

Snorkelbottom: Cool. Now take into account that the rest of the Alien movies are post-predator. And there are no preds in them. Not even in Prometheus wich is the newest....

@snorkel, you're right the company is called Weyland Corporation and was founded in 2012. Weyland Corporation and Weyland Industries are the same company. If they were different companies then why on their own website in thier own corporate timeline do Weyland Industries not have any record before 2012? Things like: 2004 : Weyland Industries Founder or owner Charles Bishop Weyland Dies or Whatever Year: Satellite PS12 sent into orbit. (Satellite at start of AVP) They do have 1990: Peter Weyland Born 2015:Weyland Industries launches first industrialized space mission to install solar panels that align and move in Earth’s orbital plane but at an axial tilt. Another Note. Just watched the start of AVP and it says: October 3rd 2004 Low Earth Orbit Weyland Corporation Satellite PS12 Didnt Peter Weyland Form the Corporation in 2012? PS. Loving the debate.

@Dustie Yes, I understood the idea that it's been there for thousands of years originates with Scott. Is this rest correct? "Aliens: Colonial Marines" is claiming canonical status? Oh, my Lord.... *slowly backs out of the room, while drawing the door closed*

@ David... Actually Aliens was released in 1986, a whole year before Predator. And no I don't see your point. Why would Alien 3, Resurrection and Prometheus have Predators in them, they aren't about Predators. @ Dustie... I said at least 2000 years, not exactly. Wasn't the intention, even way back in Alien that the derelict craft had been there a long, long time. Also the Sulaco does not burn when leaving LV-426 (it was in orbit) and neither was it on fire in Alien 3 (although their was an electrical fire onboard caused by a Facehuggers acid) that was the EEV. And we have no idea if the derelict was destroyed when Hadleys Hope went nuclear, as we don't know how far away it was from the colony. If the game breaks events known to happen it is not canon, and cant be canon unless FOX or Brandywine (meh) acknowledge it as such. @ ETB... Will have to check that claim in AVP. But there is no refuting that we the audience were first shown Weyland Industries back in 2004 in AVP. The sheer fact that the viral campaign for Prometheus uses the same name suggests AVP's inclusion. Weyland Industries and Weyland Corporation were not the same company until 2012... Is it not possible that Weyland Industries (founded pre-2004) was incorporated into Weyland Corporation when it was recognized in 2012. And as to no mention of Weyland Industries previous endeavours, why would they, wouldn't it taint the image of their CEO and founder Sir Peter Weyland.

Spaceballs had an alien in it :S (and john hurt) - one of the wierdest things ever: [img]http://deadlymovies.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/deadlymovies_alien-dance.jpg[/img] [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVZUVeMtYXc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVZUVeMtYXc[/url]

@snorkel, if weyland Industries was around beofre 2012 Peter Weyland wouldn't be able to use Weyland in the name of Weyland Corporation as it is against the law. it is too similar to Weyland Industries and wouldnt be allowed. How would it taint his image? What company would put up records that taints their own image? Surely they did 1 good thing before 2012? or at least say when they were founded?

i think i have said this in another discussion before, but i don't see a problem with the preds, aliens, and now engineers exsisting in the same universe. i didnt have a problem with the alien skull in predator 2, but y not leave it at that? instead of making a film that was supposed to be a prequel then making a god awful sequel, they should have left the fact that preds and aliens have seen each other at that, a thought. although i could imagine a predator and engineer facing off, that would be a good fight to film jus for the heck of it ;)

@ ETB... Weyland Industries was around before 2012, it featured in 2004's AVP, and was founded by CB Weyland, a self taught engineer. And as regards your arguments regarding company names, I am afraid a simple google search proved the matter wrong... [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars,_Incorporated]Mars Incorporated[/url] is a website for the well known manufacturer of chocolate and pet food products, and... [url=http://www.indiamart.com/mars-industries/]Mars Industries[/url] is a link to an international company that makes door and window fittings.

@ Snorkel, the basis of your argument stems from the fact that there are two names, Weyland Industries and Weyland Corporation. From that you state that, since there are two names then they are different companies. First being Weyland Industries, founded before 2012, by Charles Bishop Weyland and featured in AVP. The second being Weyland Corporation, founded in 2012, by Sir Peter Weyland and featured in Prometheus. Like I said before, if Weyland Industries is a different company from Weyland Corporation, then why on their own website on their own corporate timeline do they: Not state any records before 2012? Why is it only after 2012 does the company do anything? You say that it would taint that image of Peter Weyland. Why not state when Weyland Industries was founded? What harm would that do to Peter Weyland? Why does it not say when Weyland Corporations buys out or incorporates Weyland Industries? To further use the timeline on the Weyland Industries: Weyland Industries launches first industrialized space mission to install solar panels that align and move in Earth’s orbital plane but at an axial tilt, imitating a perpetual summer solstice. The renewable energy gathered in the months following this expedition made Peter Weyland his first billion. March 27, 2015 If that was their first industrialised space mission, then how did they get the satellite in AVP into orbit beforehand. One the subject of the two names, if they are different companies then: Why does Peter Weyland set up a different company from one that’s already there? How does he use the name Weyland in Weyland Corporation when it’s against the law to do so? It is too similar, Weyland Industries and Weyland Corporation sound too alike. You cannot use the same name when the company is going to do the same thing as another company with the same name. Like I cannot set up a restaurant and call it Mcdonalds. Making Chocolate and making door and window fittings are two very different things. For me, Weyland Industries and Weyland Corporation are the same company. Weyland Corporation is the overall name of the company. It is where Finance, Legal and General running of the company is held. It says in the timeline, Weyland Corporation is recognized as a legal entity and corporation under United States law and receives their Certificate of Incorporation from the Companies House in the United Kingdom. It says this because that is how everything was set up. Weyland Corp is recognised as a separate legal entity and is recognized by the law to have rights and responsibilities like natural persons. This is because corporations can exercise human rights against real individuals and the state and they can themselves be responsible for human rights violations. It is all to protect Peter Weyland from anything Legal held against the company. Weyland Industries is apart Weyland Corporation and is the manufacturing arm of the company. They research, manufacture and produce things like solar panels, David and Powerloaders. Because there is no record before 2012 And Weyland Corp and Weyland Industries are the same company Since it states that Peter Weyland is the founder of Weyland Corp/Industries There is only on logical conclusion, in the Alien Canon, Weyland Industries or Corporation didn’t exist before 2012. Theres the Alien Universe, theres the Predator universe and there is the AVP Universe. All three don’t exist within the same Universe. PS. did you check the start of AVP for the Weyland Corporation Satellite?

@ ETB... Your persistence is admirable... My argument on this matter stems from the undeniable fact that both Weyland Industries and as it turns out also Weyland Corporation (the satellite at the start of AVP - Weyland Corporation Satellite PS12) were first shown to us back in 2004, in AVP (which was also when the film was set). My comment of the company names was that Charles Bishop Weyland had founded Weyland Industries pre-2004. And that Peter Weyland had founded Weyland Corporation in 2012. However, in light of your discovery it seems that Charles Bishop Weyland was actually the founder of both - Corporation being the head business - the brain, and Industries being the manufacturing business - the brawn. Which "seems" to be contradicted by the corporate timeline on the website www.weylandindustries.com. Unless you look at it from a simple yet hypothetical, but plausible perspective... [b]AVP[/b] Charles Bishop Weyland, a british billionaire and self taught engineer, creates Weyland Corporation/Industries - a communications and engineering business including but not limited to the production of Communication and Surveillance Satellites, Robotics and Military Weapons. [b]CORPORATE TIMELINE[/b] 1990, while in Mumbai, India. Weyland's wife, an Oxford-educated Professor of Comparative Mythology, gives birth to their one an only child, Peter. Being as bright and intelligent as his parents, and aware of his fathers health problems Peter Weyland , at the mere age of 14, patents a synthetic trachea constructed entirely of synthetically-engineered stem cells. [b]AVP/AVPR[/b] 2004, CB Weyland heads an expedition to Antarctica, and never returns. The details of CB Weyland's death are covered up by the US Government sanctioned task force the O.W.L.F. With the death of the companies CEO and founder Weyland Corporation/Industries starts to crumble from within. [b]CORPORATE TIMELINE[/b] October 11th 2012, Peter Weyland at the mere age of 22, restructures his fathers company making it his own and beginning his own legacy. In time the new company develops and produces technology and solutions across all markets making the company the largest ever, all thanks to Sir Peter Weyland. ...Not only does that fit in with the films it also fits in with the corporate timeline. Why then is there no mention of the companies accomplishments pre-2012, quite simple really and I believe Meredith Vickers said it quite eloquently "Every king has his reign, and then he dies". History is written by the victors and the heirs, not the losers and the has-beens. But, one question has to be asked, is the website itself considered to be canon?

@snorkel, you say: However, in light of your discovery it seems that Charles Bishop Weyland was actually the founder of both - Corporation being the head business - the brain, and Industries being the manufacturing business - the brawn. But it says on the website in the ABOUT US section: ......Fifty years ago, our founder Sir Peter Weyland set out to change the world. Now, the company he created so many years ago works tirelessly with the same unlimited ambition to improve the world he changed. It cant be both. It doesn't say on the corporate timeline that or on the website that that he restructures his fathers company. it however does say, he is the founder of the company. Im using records from the Weyland Industries website, you are using what ever you can from AVP to try and fit it in. The corporation wasn't founded until 2012 by Peter Weyland. Dont look at it hypothetical at all, thats subjective.

@ ETB.... Subjective. No I'm afraid its actually objective, it is the site that is subjective and the films (all 10) that are objective. And contrary to your assumption, I am using both the information from all 10 films and the Weyland Industries website... As you state the site says... [i]......Fifty years ago, our founder Sir Peter Weyland set out to change the world. Now, the company he created so many years ago works tirelessly with the same unlimited ambition to improve the world he changed.[/i] Look at the above language in the text, the intention - The great Sir Peter Weyland, the saviour of mankind. A little preachy towards this one individual don't you think, the same individual whom funded a trillion dollars expedition to a distant planet looking for god and went along for the ride in stasis mere days from deaths door. Now look at the films... AVP shows that Weyland Industries and (thanks to your own observations) Weyland Corporation existed before 2004, under Charles Bishop Weyland. Prometheus uses one of these companies, with the website stating that it was recognized as a legal entity under Peter Weyland in 2012. Now isn't it possible looking at the above statements that they go together by having CB Weyland create the foundation for what Peter Weyland later took credit for, writing CB Weyland out of the equation and taking all the credit for himself. Does this not match the character of Peter Weyland. It wouldn't be the first time or the last time that such a "takeover" had occurred. If Prometheus wanted to ret-con the possibility of the four franchises existing in the same universe why use the same company names established in AVP for its viral marketing and film? Why have Peter Weyland born before CB Weylands death? Why even have Weyland be the companies founding members last name? Why have the Yutani Corporation as a competitor? All ideas presented in the AVP's, all ideas carried over into Prometheus and its viral marketing campaign.

@Snorkel, I use the Weyland Industries website because it was setup for the intention of promotion of Prometheus. Prometheus is a film that is set before Alien, 30 years or so before hand. We know this is canon with Alien because we have been told by Ridley Scott in interviews. He has said that it is in the same universe as Alien. If it wasn’t then Fox wouldn’t allow him to do so. Fox setup the Weyland Industries website to gain a large fan base for the film in the lead up to the release of the film. They did this by giving a timeline leading up to the launch of the mission. Key facts (within the universe) given out about key characters. They have facts that fit with other films, like the Powerloader in Aliens. It says that Peter Weyland is the Founder and that he created the company. The definition of Founded : 1. Establish, set-up, originate. A business cannot be founded twice. He founded the company, according to its own website, in 2012. It was around before 2004 in AVP (I can’t deny that) but not in Prometheus. AVP and Prometheus don’t exist within the same universe. Prometheus came about because of unanswered questions in Alien, AVP came about because of a skull in Predator which was there for a laugh. Prometheus is a loosely based prequel about Alien but it is most definitely within the same universe as Alien. We have been told that by the director of Alien. Just because something is in AVP you can’t start making up hypothetical scenario’s to back up your claim. Two pages back you said in a post [i]Note the first line says "Weyland Corporation is recognized as a legal entity...". I repeat Weyland Corporation is recognized, not Weyland Industries. Nowhere in this text is the name Weyland Industries mentioned. It is clearly stated above that Peter Weyland is the founder and CEO of Weyland Corporation. The Founder and CEO of Weyland Industries is clearly shown in AVP to be Charles Bishop Weyland.[/i] But when I show you a contradiction you then say [i]However, in light of your discovery it seems that Charles Bishop Weyland was actually the founder of both - Corporation being the head business - the brain, and Industries being the manufacturing business - the brawn. Which "seems" to be contradicted by the corporate timeline on the website www.weylandindustries.com. Unless you look at it from a simple yet hypothetical, but plausible perspective... AVP Charles Bishop Weyland, a british billionaire and self taught engineer, creates Weyland Corporation/Industries - a communications and engineering business including but not limited to the production of Communication and Surveillance Satellites, Robotics and Military Weapons.[/i] That’s not proof. It doesn’t ‘seem’ like a contradiction, it is one. Just because you can come up with a hypothetical scenario connecting the films doesn’t make it so. I have shown you a contradiction and your answer was hypothetical.