The FINAL Canon Debate

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Gavin

MemberTrilobiteJuly 25, 2012

Many, many times other members and myself have put forward the possibility that the following film franchises all exist within the same fictional universe and are thus all canon to one another... [center][b]Predator - AVP - Prometheus - Alien[/b][/center] ...Yet many, many naysayers and detractors voice their opinions stating this is not the case. 9 times out of 10, such arguments are subjective, from individuals whom don't like the idea. Now, while some of those supporting the idea of these franchises existing within the same universe may also have subjective arguments, I do not. I have looked at this debate from an objective point of view and always reach the same conclusions... - There is more information in the movies to suggest they are all set within the same fictional universe - There is no contradictory information in the movies that states otherwise - There has not been any official statement stating otherwise To that end I challenge the naysayers to disprove, with verifiable sources for their information and statements, why these franchises are not part of the same universe.

David 1
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July 25, 2012

Question: Did ALIEN had predators in it? - NO Did ALIENS had predators in it? - NO Did ALIENS 3 had predators in it? - NO, but had some nasty predators of another kind Did ALIENS 4 had predators in it? - NO Conclusion: Predators ARE NOT ALIEN UNIVERSE CANON. I might also reply to that old "there is an alien skull on the pred's ship" with this question: If some stranger brakes in your house, sits in your couch puts his feet on your table and watches your tv, does that turn that person into the rightful owner of your own house?

[b]Ask nothing from no one. Demand nothing from no one. Expect nothing from no one.[/b]

allinamberclad
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July 25, 2012

Personally, I'm not sure, at all, that suggestion, absence of contradiction, and lack of official denial is its own conclusion and that it must necessarily be interpreted as inclusion and acceptance?.. Perhaps I could be tolerated to wander up and down Yasenevo and produce an air of suggestion that I was a respected Cryptologist of the First Directorate of Intelligence?.. However tolerant they are of my foolishness, I suspect that a very great amount of extreme prejudice and tremendous rough handling would be my greeting, the second I tried to gain entry. @David 1 Well put.

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July 25, 2012

@snorkelbottom I am one of the few who believe that you nailed it. I believe that until there is a CLEAR statement or sequel that contradicts the pred or AvP movies, they remain canon. You know what? It's really no skin off my back either way. There are some weird aspects to the introduction of other franchises such as the preds, but hey, if the powers that be don't like how it turned out than they will not write sequels..it's really no big deal. To answer your challenge, no I cannot find anything anywhere that states that scenes from pred 2, AvPs, or alien r are to be considered null and void. As for people's reactions...well, for some reason the abbreviation AvP just gets people fired up when the word canon is mentioned. Mention the word canon and people will subconsciously make a decision to avoid the topic or question and just plain debate canon...not realizing that they are acting a little ADD. Post your evidence people, not your opinions! :)

ALL generalizations are WRONG!

aurorian
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July 25, 2012

David 1
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July 25, 2012

Nrlfetmefan: quoting you mate [and sorry for that] "I believe that until there is a CLEAR statement or sequel that contradicts the pred or AvP movies, they remain canon." Did ALIEN had predators in it? - NO Did ALIENS had predators in it? - NO Did ALIENS 3 had predators in it? - NO Did ALIENS 4 had predators in it? - NO plus: Did Prometheus had predators in it? - NO IT DID NOT! still need more evidence?

[b]Ask nothing from no one. Demand nothing from no one. Expect nothing from no one.[/b]

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July 25, 2012

Actually, your proving my point by answering the way you just have...don't worry about what I wrote, go find proof that the film makers themselves have disregarded the AvP and pred movies. But but to use your logic: Did alien have an evidence of an alien...Yes Did aliens have evidence of aliens....yes Did alien3 have evidence of an alien...yes Did alien r have evidence of aliens....yes Did pred2 have evidence of an alien...yes Did AvP have evidence of aliens...yes Did avp r have evidence of aliens...yes Did Prometheus have evidence of aliens....kind of Did alien, aliens, alien3, alien r, AvP, and AvP r have evidence of Weyland or Yutani? Yes Look at it however you want. ;)

ALL generalizations are WRONG!

Gavin
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July 25, 2012

@ David 1... Lack of a characters appearance does not mean lack of their existence. Also all of the Alien movies were released before AVP, which leaves Prometheus - a film about the Engineers, not the Predators, thus no need to feature them.

Engineer Tech Brett
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July 25, 2012

I take it we are going purely on film here as a basis of evidence? No comics, games or novels?

Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.

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July 25, 2012

I only ever played AvP2 as far as games go and only ever read 20 or so of the comics....so I can only add this: AvP2 made mention of the Weyland Yutani Corp, colonial marines, preds and Aliens and I don't believe that it contradicted any of the movies. As for the comics, there was a set that bring the engineers into play, but they are not what eventually Prometheus makes them out to be...or it didn't seem that way to me. They must have referred to the original Aliens vs Predator comics, because at the end of AvP, one of the preds burns a sort of warrior mark into the main chicks face...the same as in the comics. So, are the comics canon? Probably not, but they sure make a great reference for the writers.

ALL generalizations are WRONG!

Engineer Tech Brett
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July 25, 2012

If it is just films then i would say........... Alien v Predator is set in 2004 with Charles Bishop Weyland as head of Weyland Industries but according to Prometheus Weyland Industries isn't formed until 2012 and Sir Peter Weyland is the founder.

Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.

CULT
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July 25, 2012

But what is the purpose of looking for Cannon, really? The rules can change at any directors' whim.. the rules are just made-up as they go alone.. but, hey, on second thought that's a pretty good working definition of 'Cannon' - that and dealing w/ contradictions.. just my 2 cents.

genjitsu17
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July 25, 2012

Nice call Brett!!

I may work for the company, but im really an OK guy.

CULT
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July 25, 2012

..and by 'director' I mean anyone with enough clout to push the franchise (and that's such a better word than Cannon, I'm so sorry) in whatever direction they wish. Speaking of loose ends when's the Peter/Chares W. connection ever gonna be flushed out...

CULT
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July 25, 2012

...or lack off I should say, ...right. ...and while on topic why shouldn't Blade Runner be added into the same mix (other than a few time line contradictions) but maybe the dates were changed to protect the innocent? I say BR has more of a 'right' to exist as Holy Cannon w/ ALIEN than the rest of the trippe.. even if the dots don't all line up, the distopian, thematic, and stylalized vision all do.. ...right.

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July 25, 2012

Nrlfetmefan and Snorkelbottom: As for seing the way one wants, it is obvious to the lot that Nrlfetmefan is disregarding the fact that ALIEN is a stand-alone movie prior to any Pred movie. Did Schwarzie fight a Xeno? NO HE DID NOT. Was he employed by Weyland? NO HE WAS NOT. Get over it. Snorks: Saying that a Pred doesn't make it's appearance in any of the Alien movies is not a sign of it not being in the same Universe is as a much of a fallacy as saying "just because a dog barks it doesn't mean he is really a dog". Sensless. I understand the desire to put the Alien and the Preds together for action sake, but please... two diferent creations from two diferent people. Blame it on the game makers.

[b]Ask nothing from no one. Demand nothing from no one. Expect nothing from no one.[/b]

CULT
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July 25, 2012

There' s something very wrong w this logic (but why call it that?)

shambs
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July 25, 2012

I have read comments from fans who think that only Scott's Alien is canon. So according to this Canon is just what I like, and the rest to hell.

David 1
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July 25, 2012

Shambala: And I'm one of them. ALIEN is THE Canon. The rest is fan made stuff to cash in at someone elses creation. Like a painter trying to make an extention to the original paintings of the Sistine Chapel. mehh.

[b]Ask nothing from no one. Demand nothing from no one. Expect nothing from no one.[/b]

.
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July 25, 2012

I haz a karrot.

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July 25, 2012

@david1 Yes I am seeing it the way that I want. I am free to do so and can back it up with very basic logic....this does not make me foolish. Thus far you have not quoted one single interview or article dismissing the other movies. Why don't you just show us something aside from your personal opinion and settle this once and for all? You up for that challenge? BRING IT ON! It your options are right, we still all win the battle of having a greater understanding of the alien universe. ;)

ALL generalizations are WRONG!

The FINAL Canon Debate

Gavin

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