Proposing Paradise as the last instalment to the Alien prequel trilogy!

@Gavin Fair enough, I was talking about the Marine campaign in the '99 game. Both have experimentation on the Xenomorphs (cyber enhanced). marines, queens. The "praetorians" could have been also introduced as some form of genetic manipulation.

Judging Waterston only her very brief appearance in Logan Lucky is very superficial. Why not try Steve Jobs (where she plays Faszy's wife) of Mid90s? But judging by her filmography Covenant and the Potter prequel are her biggest roles yet.

Images fixed in the Adult Deacon thread, though some are broken or have been deleted.

@ ignorantguy,

Logan Lucky, Adam Driver and Daniel Craig were awesome in that movie. Sadly most general audiences are superficial - we all like actors that leave an impression.

If Waterston has done something that stands out performance wise, I'll be more than open to giving her a chance, but based on what I've seen thus far I think we may have already seen the limit of her range - but one can be wrong, who would have thought "that guy" from Knights Tale would give us the definitive Joker in Dark Knight.

"the relations are not quite as straight forward as you claim. In many myths I know there is a personification of the primordial Chaos"

Certainly there is quite a lot to each Mythos and Many Cultures/Mythos and Religions do share quite a lot of similar things, maybe its a case of Ticking Off the things they have in common and then sticking a HP Lovecraft Twist to them with a Dose of HR Giger Aesthetic.

The Virtue of exploring various Creation/God Mythos is it allows for a Very Rich and Broad Pot of Ideas to be looked at, but then it can also become a bit Complex when trying to Pick Which to loosely base the Franchise off and which to not.

I think Prometheus does seem to tease a bit more of a Biblical/Paradise Lost take, but i think they should not overlook the Prometheus Aspect as far as the Greek Titan.

The Fresco is something open to interpretation i looked at it as being Punishment to Prometheus.. now in context to Prometheus this could imply NOT a single being but maybe a Race of beings or Sect.

I was kind of drawn to looking at this the same way as the NEXT Layer..  Going back to Prometheus.. if we indeed assume the LV-426 Eggs were intended for Mankind, but this Mission Failed..  and Mankind now sought out the Bio-Weapon intended for them to use to their Advantage would the Xenomorph purely have only the use as a Bio-Weapon?

So could the Engineers (or those LV-223 ones) had upset their Hierarchy and been sent something as Punishment that they then eventually saw as a Potential to Improve themselves?   I think a Problem with this would be the Bio-Mechanical Ships, and IF they are Reverse Engineered from the Xenomorph or connected, then we have to ask WHY was those Planet 4 Engineers not punished too?  Prior to Alien Covenant it was a theory that made a bit more sense.

@Gavin

"suggesting such Chosen few are augmented in some way"

Certainly seems that way, when we saw Prometheus we saw that the LV-223 Engineers had this Bio-Mechanical Technology and had to ask where did this come from?  Created, Stolen or Reverse Engineered?

Alien Covenant introduced us to the Planet 4 Engineers who were just NOT as Awe Inspiring and looked more like Human Hybrids, we pondered was the differences just LAZY and Budget Cutting...  Who knows what the intention was.. but Ridley Scott came out and said that those beings are the Originals, when he talks about AI and mentions Replicants, then maybe we could ponder that the Prometheus Engineers are Augmented Planet 4 Engineers, are they a Sub-Created/Engineered version, a Selection of those Engineers who Evolved themselves, but was this permitted?

And what was the Method of this Genetic Augmentation and could this connect to the Black Goo or DNA/Traits of a Organism connected?

Regarding David indeed maybe he could be Redeemed... the Prometheus David, the Crossing David and the TRAILER SONG could lead us to ponder would he had turned out the way he had, if he had been treated KINDLY?

"if we are kind, it will be a kind world"

His response to Daniels (as Walter) when asked what kind of World can they Build.   The SEQUEL was intended to be about what kind of a world David would create/build and in this he could maybe Redeem himself.

Because on the Basis of it, we could see WALTER is not Evil as he has No Free-Will, but with Mankind we have Free-Will and our Upbringing can Shape the Person we are.. this could have affected David... but also if we consider how KIND is Mankind as far as following the Ways/Rules that a God would have set out, then a Large % would offend the Gods in todays world.   Maybe David could Create a New Civilization that is Free from Sin of Mankind.   We also have Damaged our Planet, imagine if a God came to visit us 3000 years ago, and then look at the World Today?  This is why the Covenant Crew were attempting to escape the Rotting Paradise of Earth to try and find a NEW Eden..

Maybe the Engineers had a Industrial Bio-Mechanical Revolution and realized the Damage/Hubris this caused, and so they Returned to a more Basic Life... like the Amish and Monks do etc.

Regarding the Daniels vs Shaw debate...

I have not seen as many of Watertons Performances as they are  movies that never appealed to me as far as MUST see, but i think the same thing goes with Rapace and her Character.   The Prequels were not the best written Characters or Performed, yet both Actresses are capable of better than they did.  Is this the Writers Fault, Directors or just a case of one of their lesser Performances.  I know some Fans would love to see Miss Weaver back but i dont recall many Stand Out Performances since the 2000's, she is capable of a Decent Performance Still i think regardless who is CAST its the Characters Written for them and the Input/Influence of the Director to get the best from them that counts.

Regarding the Deacon i looked at it as being Human Hybrid in terms of how it was Born (Placenta) and Fully Formed.

And so i would have assumed when Fully Grown the Creature would look similar just Snarl a Lot more and be like 10-12ft Tall. (Birthed from Engineer).  Maybe if we look at the Human Traits the Deacons Head to Body Proportions could maybe Differ a bit when its Adult (like a Human Baby vs Human Adult).

As far as what happened to the Deacon?  In context to the Movie Franchise who knows...  The Movie seemed to suggest it maybe had a 4-5 Day Gestation Period, which we can assume that Dr Shaw went back and saw the Dead Trilobite and Engineer and assumed both was DEAD and then this is when she had plenty of time to Collect Supplies for The Crossing, unless we assume by Pure Luck she found all of these from the Prometheus Exploded Wreckage.

Way late to the party. I like the idea of Paradise being the last movie to close the story loop. I also like the idea of the subjective interpretation of "Paradise". 

It is also nice to know I am not alone considering the possible effects the black goo could have on David.

I think if we are to have ONE Concluding Movie, here are perhaps the things it would have to try and cover/achieve.

1) Either have Conclude or Indicate IF our David had or Did-Not Create what EVENTUALLY end up on LV-426

2) Would have to have the Xenomorph included even if this could be a Short Scene.

3) It would have to have some Xenomorph or Similar Scenes/Monsters.

4) It would have to try and Balance between a Bit of Action, and a bit of Horror.

5) It would have to keep some of the Space Adventure Elements of Prometheus.

6) It would have to cover the Engineers or at the Space Jockey Race (if Different).

7) It would have to have Human Characters, and they would have to be Well Written/Executed.

8) It would have to LOOSELY touch upon some of the Prometheus Themes, Creation, Sub-Creation, Knowledge/Technology (Taught or Stolen) Rebellion, Hubris, Pursuit of Perfection, Immortality.

9) Leave some Clues/Information to how Special Order 937 came about and what Knowledge of the Species does the Company Have and HOW.

10) Would have to CLOSE the Door to ALIEN but open up avenues for ALIEN related Future Movies set in the Year 2122 or Beyond.  While allowing the Door OPEN to explore other Aspects regarding the Engineers, their Creators, Creations and what other Horrors they have in Store or been a part of.

It would not Necessarily have to be about any of the Characters from the Prequels so FAR...

Trying to INCLUDE most of those 10 Steps, and Please EVERY Fan is going to be a Impossible Task, all they can do is come up with a Story they FEEL may please about 50% of the Varied Fanbase and Hope for the Best!

A Movie that should be some kind of Conclusion but leave it OPEN so that Future Movies can Branch Off as ALIEN Franchise related (Xenomorphs/LV-426)  and so be set around and after 2122 or just prior in the Time Line.

WHILE the and another that can Branch Off regarding the Engineers, their Hierarchy and such! and be free to be set in ANY Time-Line..... Past (prior to 2105) Present 2105-2175 or Future  Post 2180

As far as PARADISE

Such a Name can be interpreted and used in any number of ways, are we talking Paradise as in the Engineers Home-world or the World of their Creators?

The Tag Line was:  The path to paradise begins in hell.

Which is from Dante... but regardless of that, this could be interpreted in context to ALIEN: Covenant that Planet 4 is the HELL and that this means it is NOT the place Paradise as we have YET to reach this Place!

That would be if you looking at it from the POV of David/Dr Shaw and their Odyssey in that Dr Shaw felt she would be taken to Paradise but she is taken to HELL instead!

But it also could be taken in context to the Covenant Mission, they were off to escape the Rotting Paradise of Earth in search for a NEW Eden/Paradise but they did not reach that Destination (Origae-6) instead they turned up at a World they may have thought could be a Paradise but instead was HELL for them.

In either case it could allow people to consider Planet 4 is NOT what we call Paradise.

Some could use the "Better to Rein in Hell" comment by David that indeed Planet 4 is NOT our Paradise, as this is the Place David reigns.  And thus is HELL.... its where those so called Fallen Angels came from too (Engineers).

This could mean however that the HELL that David wishes to rein in could yet be Origae-6

What it could be is that Planet 4 may have been the Paradise as far as Garden of Eden/Creation and that David had turned this Place into his HELL.

I think it’s partly an issue about subgenres. To me, Alien is sci-fi horror. It’s not fantasy. It’s more realism. To me, what made Alien so frightening was that it had an air of realism to it, with Brett and Parker as mechanics working in greasy, dirty hallways and machine areas. There is a touch of fantasy connected to the works of Giger, but I experience them more as showing that there is an alien race who has built advanced spaceships. The creature is also “realistic” with a definite biological (rather than biomechanical) look. There are drooling jaws, stealth and smooth movements - a hunter, a predator, a deadly species. There is biology with sexual organs, eggs, bodily fluids, heat and moisture, and instincts, propagation and survival.

Scott chose not to show too much of neither the creature nor Giger’s art. The biomechanical style tends to get a bit surrealistic at times. If there is too much surrealism, you obviously lose the sense of realism and you might also lose the creepy feeling of almost being there. To me, the best sci-fi is realism set in the future and perhaps in a different area of the galaxy. There is new technology (but not too fanciful) and there are extraterrestrials (but not purple with green eyes).

I don’t think Scott was particularly interested in the biomechanical part, more the looks of the creature and the juggernaut etc. I think that Scott more saw the biological aspects: rape (facehugging), procreation, eggs, animal instincts etc. I don’t think that the biomechanical aspect of it is intended to be real - a blending of biology and mechanics (technology). It’s just some of the aesthetics (of which not much was shown in Alien).

So, I’m not in favour of a blending of David’s synthetic makeup with an organic egg (facehugger). We could also see in Alien: Covenant that the eggs didn’t react to his presence. I think I prefer to see the alien as a species who has evolved in a harsh environment rather than a created thing or a mixture of a robot (synthetic) and a biological organism.

Audience division and segregation will continue in any depreciating franchise until a unifying installment is produced that satisfies the audience, of which the Alien franchise is in need of. Because we need to satisfy both the general audience and the fandom, the list of franchise settling narratives should be kept to a bare minimum so as not to overwhelm general audiences, but with enough inferences and easter eggs to satisfy the fandom and all within a well executed, paced and developed narrative. This is by no means an impossible task, but it is a difficult one even for seasoned filmmakers.

As such BigDave, your list of required narrative beats needs to be shortened/simplified...

#1 - The conclusion of Davids arc. 

#2 - Definition of the Engineer mythology. Who/what are the Engineers? What is their relationship to the Xenomorph, humans and whatever is on LV-426?

#3 - The triumphant return of the Xenomorph. The Xenomorph needs to be executed with respect - an unseen, unstoppable force.

#4 - The human element. Through relatable, well written and well portrayed characters elements of the human backstory to the franchise need to be covered, or at the very least inferred; such as why the Nostromo will be used to execute Special Order 937 (corporate conspiracy), and why Weyland-Yutani desire the Xenomorph so much?

#5 - The mystery of LV-426; the origins of the derelict Juggernaut, it's pilot and its cargo.

As chli's preference on the Xenomorph's origins highlights some other aspects need to be left ambiguous. Only the necessary, rudimentary questions should be answered, and such answers need not be so specific.

For example, by somehow revealing (flashback, hieroglyphs, etc.) that the Engineers took eggs from the derelict Juggernaught on LV-426 and weaponized the Xenomorph into the black pathogen you infer the derelicts pilot may not be an Engineer, and that its cargo of eggs predates whatever David thinks he created, it also infers that the Engineers technology is also not their own.

I love it.  I always thought the original alien had similar "tubes" to the inside guts of Ash and Bishop.  Makes perfect sense.  

I would also like to see an Ash model in a new movie to bring it full circle. 

Gavin:

“always discuss/debate the topic, never the individual.”

I agree, I don’t see what it brings to the discussion about having it about another board member anyways, if that is what you mean.

As far as Shaw is concerned I think that she was a lot better in the Crossing than in Prometheus. I have seen her in at least two other movies where she was better as a character. I think that the script and how her character was written is to blame, not Noomi as an actress. This could also be that there were parts that were cut out that probably should have stayed in the movie. To resurrect her could work if it is a well-written script and if she understand what her characters is supposed to be like. I am not a huge fan of that but if they would do that then I think that is needed for it to work, and yeah don’t cut out pieces that should be in the movie for the reason of pacing. Character-development is more important than pacing and if all parts of the movie don’t get there then at least we have the characters being better and that is what is important to me.

You mention that she would learn what David did to her. What if she tries to get revenge on David? That is probably a theme that has been covered a lot of times before but maybe it would work for the movie? The fucking android has got to die sooner or later.

You mention her beliefs, that could be interesting but it also depends on how it comes off on the screen. She was naive/goofy in Prometheus but if they could write her better then maybe. I am not in favor of having it about a resurrected person though (AR *cough*)

About The Girl With The Dragon Tatoo and Noomi I have watched that movie, I like it.

You mention Daniels if it is alright to write some about that. I felt like she was a blank face, I did not get any idea of how she was as a person. As much as I disliked Shaw at least she had a personality, which is to say that I understood like “she is like this and that“ but as with Daniels I never understood how she was as a person. She (Daniels) could work if they get a writer worth a damn but the way that it has been until now if they continue that path then we will end up with another mediocre movie.

About David: I agree that he could be changed, right now he is just a mustache-twirling bad guy. I prefer how he was in Prometheus. Sure he could be written as a bad guy but he should also have some sympathetic traits. For a comparison I think that there were more to Hitler than just killing Jews. If you look at really terrible historical leaders a lot of them say that “I was fighting for the better good” no matter how horrible their deeds have been, the same could be done with David.

I want Jessica Chastain in the Next Alien Movie.

I want Jessica Chastain in every movie setaverde.

"Approaching the rock the figure is revealed to be a middle-aged Peter Weyland (Guy Pearce). Driven forward by further hallucinations of Weyland, Shaw and Niander Wallace"

Yes, if there is a small audience for this direction, then I'm in it.  

One thing I really liked about Alien: Covenant Origins and Alien: The Cold Forge was the corporations competing with each other for exotic technology.  So, I would be the last to be upset with a tie to Wallace to fill out the last part of this century's storyline.  

Great work Gavin.  

Kage, yes, bring on Ash.  

In The Weyland-Yutani Report, artificial intelligence is discussed with David and Ash on the same page with an explanation on how a "personality" can be transferred.  

Is Ash David's Personality?

I am not alone in wondering if Ash is David because Ash clearly lives on inside of Mother and speaks to Ripley when she addresses him directly.

"Hello Ash, she typed.  The words appeared on the screen.....

Hello Ripley."

Alien: Out of the Shadows, page 85.