Ultimate Fresco Discusion....

oduodu, yes i was talking about physical pain. the birth process of the xenomorph is massively painful obviously....but i think to th engineers there is a chance that they view that pain as spiritual. i think the engineers might believe that the apocalyptic levels of pain in the process of xenomorph birth might actually be at once physical and spiritual....like a vortex of the spirit. i think they might view the xenomorph as being a new body for the host to continue in.

Galzu, the cross is not a symbol for death. it is a symbol for sacrifice. the sacrifice Christ made is for us to have eternal life, for him to lead us through hades and into eternity. satan's goal is power for the sake of power.he does not like humans. he believes they are beyond redemption, and whilst he is not entirely wrong, he isn't entirely right either. the Christian assertion is that ultimately, personal power is meaningless within the grand cpntext of the universe....life is for everyone, not just a few.his sacrifice for our forgiveness, and for our ability to forgive one another breeds more understanding, love and life. not hatred, hostility and death.

I am not sure on the Pain issue... seems the Engineers feel it and find it just as uncomfortable as Humans do ....

I cant really contribute much to this.... but in reply to the latest comments on that subject.....  maybe "The Trick is Not Minding it Hurts" for example the ulitmate Sacrifical reason in which they prepare for the pain..

@Galzu some interesting ideas, and while i wish to not get too deep on the whole connecttion between Religons and The Vatican etc....... 

As i think Prometheus is going for a lose connection to religons, so we need maybe take the broad strokes.. then yes the connections of creation and rebelion as you mention and connection to Prometheus, did you mean Titan? or Movie? But regardless we see the connections vaguely with regards to both.

As far as the role in relation to the Bibles Jesus and Satan and the Cross, i dont think we would try and make much out of this...  but just to look at the underlying tones and broad strokes.....  Which again is Rebelion and Punishment.

As far as the Cross.... i again think it sympolises Sacrifice i think there is nothing much more to it, ok Christian based religons see it as more important but the basic idea is still that it is to remind them that Christ Sacrificed himself on the Cross so that Mankind may gain Atonementfor their Sins through Christ.

But we can not connect this literally to the movie or Engineers, aside from the Importance of Sacrifice which is what the Cross in Prometheus represents i.e also the Mural.

Onto the Annunaki Frescos i feel these are more relivent and yes the Eagle one too, we can not say for sure that this is to give us answers for Prometheus... the movie is so ambigious with its links to Ancient Cultures that we can not be sure which will apply.. and so only the broad themes maybe do.

But if i was to consider those Annunaki Frescos then both are different representations of the same God....  these kind of images appear a number of times and one Mural shows us the Tree of Life....

Here is another version and now not the Gods "with Wings" to the edges are replaced with Eagles but for all intensive purposes its the same event.

Does it have any connection with the Murals etc in Prometheus... not really but it could be made to as its all about Ambiguity and Interpretation...

These images show.... Centre the Tree of Life either side is Assyrian Men (Mankind) behind them are the repretation of Gods this is why they are depicted with "Wings" above the Tree is the God "Great Anu" in his winged craft.  

We can speculate what this all means, and connect it to Prometheus but it seems like a relation between Gods, Mankind and Tree of Knowledge and its Fruit.  The lesser Gods in these images are the same image as the ones posted earlier.

The Pine Cone could resemble the Fruit from the Tree of Life, and how can this be connected to Prometheus?  Well as its Sci Fi then anyway we we see fit lol

So if i was to try and connect it to Prometheus and the Frescos then maybe the Cone and the Bag are connected to the Sacrifcial Goo which comes from a Tree of Life or something else the Tree is a Symbolic representation of.

What about the Eagle Face Gods and None Eagle Face...?  Well maybe this could be a mask they use.... and so The Space Jockey Mask, which if we discountt he hose can look like a Beak.....

Or if we take it as seperate creatures... i.e Beaked Annunaki Image and exact same one mins Eagle Head but Humanoid instead, then maybe this could be that our Eagle Heads (maybe connected to our Creature in Prometheus Fresco) use the Fruit from the Tree of Life (Pine cone) aka Fire.... to create the less Gods Annunaki/Engineers and the Humanoid image just shows these Humanoid Gods stealing and using the same Fruit/Fire of Creation to then create Mankind.

Maybe losely this could fit in? who knows...

it would be interesting....

But indeed the source who leaked me some stuff claims of what the movie is about could indeed connect to those Annunaki images as they said there would be lose and vague connection to Ancient Cultures and references but only as symbolic interpretations of a Tree of Life and Forbiden Fruit from it that is the Tool of all creation, that is Stolen from the other Gods to create Mankind.

@Something Real

Your theory is a theory and a interesting one, is it whats going on, we cant be sure, its certainly a interesting twist on a more basic one.... I have my own theory well theories because with this movie one theory eventually runs into a contradiction within the movie or other clues, so we have to come up with another and this then also hits problems... so its very awkward to put our finger on a TRUE MEANING for almost anything in this movie and so we all have our own interpretations... hopefully the 2nd movie would give us some clues to help rule out or push us to other explanations but keep some of that ambiguity.

BIGDAVE - I know exactly what you mean! Indeed; one can not have a single theory with regards to Prometheus! With that being said, I greatly enjoy the theories you have presented - they are always so very interesting and thought-provoking! :)

I am not sure on the Pain issue... seems the Engineers feel it and find it just as uncomfortable as Humans do ....

I cant really contribute much to this.... but in reply to the latest comments on that subject.....  maybe "The Trick is Not Minding it Hurts" for example the ulitmate Sacrifical reason in which they prepare for the pain..

in which case my train of thought is this:

1. pain is important, as it helps an organism to survive - to understand the rules of reality

2. to worship pain is sadistic

3. however, not minding pain is a key aspect of sacrifice

4. BUT, to sacrifice oneself, is not to absolve the other of their own mortality. Whether one sacrifices themself for the other or not, the other will eventually die.

5. the question then regarding the difference between sacrifice and worshipping pain lies in intentionality - sacrifice is about reason

6. reason is about agenda

7. if we are to assume that the engineers then, do these 'sacrifices' so as to create mortal beings.then what are we to assume? they create life, but they create life which ultimately dies. here it gets grey to me....but i think, if you are to truly sacrifice, from the position of an almost immortal being like the engineer, if you are to truly sacrifice yourself for life, and not death, then you are to sacrifice yourself for the immortality of your own creation. the engineers are worshipping death in my opinion, but i accept that this last point is up for a lot of debate, so any thoughts or points on the subject are more than welcome! i'm not assuming that i have it all right!

8. my doubts regarding point 7 arise from the fact that death itself, may well be part of the process of attainng immortality or Godhood. very difficult to gauge the engineer's intentions.

basically my question is this:

if the engineers created humans, did they do so as a way of redeeming themselves, or are they just continuing to be 'dark angels' ?

THANATOS_CONTAGION - In truth, I have often questioned the notion of the Engineers creating Mankind. How do humans factor into their plans? What are we to them? Seeding worlds with DNA is no way to guarantee sentient life. Perhaps it is that the Engineers are simply an incredibly ancient race that, while going about the galaxy and their business, happened upon the human race and were amazed at what they beheld - so much so that they began tentative communication with the new species they had discovered. In the end, however, Mankind may have proved too violent for their liking. :)

@THANATOS_CONTAGION

Interesting points and i wil try and discuss them another time but for now i would just try and give the rough idea behind your Question "if the engineers created humans, did they do so as a way of redeeming themselves, or are they just continuing to be 'dark angels' ?"

I will break it down into the basic points of the Plot.. without going into any deep meanings that May or May not be behind it.

1) The premise of the movie was to be all about creation, and that creation in the Galaxy and indeed on Earth is not how the Religons sugest (Magical God) or Evolution (Darwinism) but by a Hybrid of the Two.... that the creation of Many Lifeforms on Many Worlds is at the hands of (or use of) a Ancient Humanoid Race, this Race use (or are used as) Their Genetic Material via a Ritual Sacrifice using a Ancient and Powerful Mutagen to break down and seed their DNA to then allow for either the creation of the Building Blocks of Life, or the Catalyst that Evolves Basic Life into Complex.

Thus Evolution plays the main Part, but the seeds that Star Evolution is kick started from the Genetic Material of a Ancient Race of Alien Biengs.

2) The movie then touches upon that these beings must have came back to Earth over and over to upgrade our Genetic Material to obtain Mankind as we know it, they then taught us many things and so they Evolved us not only Genetically but Technoilogically, and we in part Worshiped them and saw them as Gods.... this is how the Ancient Alien Gods connection comes in and that all Religons and Myths be that Bible/Koran Abrahamic Faiths, the Greek Mythos, the Hindu and indeed all Cultures connections to God and Gods all stems from a real account of our Engineers playing a role in our Evolution and Teachings.

3) The movie does not give us a reason for this, some never used scenes show us that their is a significance of the Sacrifice for the Benefit of the Engineers or a Faction of them. But we can not be sure if this is the case or Why, we can not be sure if this was the Agenda and Plan of the Hierarchy of the Engineers or their creators on their Homeworld (Paradise) or that if the creation and interaction of Engineers and Mankind was a ACT and Agenda by a Sect of Engineers against the wishes and knowledge of the Hierarchy on Paradise... but i think this is where the sequel would touch upon for us.

4) The movie seems to show us that there seems to be a lot of effort to create us and time, to then just want to Destroy us and some 2000 years ago a mild hint to Space Jesus Connection that has to a degree been dropped... but in favour of maybe Mankind just ended up becoming something they never intended, we may have shown seeds of Rebelion and not seeing our creators as supperior and Gods anymore...  this could play futher if indeed the Engineers who created and came back to make Mankind etc did so against their own creators wishes and so this faction would be seeing the same Rebelion against themselves as they maybe did against their creator and Hierarchy

at some point and for some purpose they wanted to destroy us... WHY? this again is something that maybe the sequel would answer even if vaguely...  or was they going to Upgrade us? (Sometimes to Create One must First Destroy) but if this was the Agenda all the time then what difference did 2000 years ago, 4000, 5000 years ago make?

Seems a lot of effort to just end up upgrade mankind to something related to Xeno DNA.. unless something happened after Mankinds creation that then made these Engineers see the DNA within those Urns as being the Ultimate DNA to seed life with?  Or was the Goo just a way to wipe the slate clean....

Again i think maybe to a degree the Sequel or 3rd movie if there is to be one would give us more clues to this.

Shaw has a few Questions, these would form the basis for Paradise....

1) Why was we created?

2) Why did they visit us and leave clues?

3) Why did they stop comming?

4) Why did they want us destroyed?

5) Who created the Engineers?

These i think are the Premise of Paradise.... but back to the TOPIC of the Original Post! Will we ever get any connection to what the Murals and Frescos in Prometheus meant as far as connection with some Alien lifeform and connection with LV 223 and experiments and our Engineers.... who knows?

To Futher in Basic Form Answer... "if the engineers created humans, did they do so as a way of redeeming themselves, or are they just continuing to be 'dark angels' ?"

Which i forgot above....

"if the engineers created humans"  The movie seems to show that they indeed did, but the movie shows this via the process of Evolution, does all Seeded life in this way lead to Mankind...  as Ridley said the Scene does not have to be Earth so yes the Engineers create life this way on many Worlds.... but do they create Mankind on many worlds or similar?

Logic would say the Engineers with the blessing of those on Paradise, or aginst the Will must have came back and futher experimented on Life on Earth to then eventually reach Mankind, for what purpose? Who knows but the movie hints that they must have held us in some good regard or that we would be needed for a greater purpose.

"did they do so as a way of redeeming themselves" We can't be sure of the exact purpose or Agenda for our creation... on one hand a not used Elder Scene shows that the Sacrifice had a great importance to the Engineers and Elders... that this process in some way would lead to benefit to their entire Species... how and why we dont know.

The movie however also points to another purpose... when Holloway says to David that Mankind created David because we could!  In which case David responds to Holloway how would he feel if Mankinds creators said the same about Mankind.

But there was a reason for creating David 8, it was not a case of because we could.. it was that these Androids could then be used to act as servants and to be used in roles and chores that Mankind has to do, and so the Androids can perform tasks and have uses that would save Mankind having to do the Labour...

Could Mankind had been created in the same way for the same purpose?  If we connect to the earliest records of Mankind interaction with Gods, then yes in the Annunaki Tale, Mankind was created to replace Rebelious lesser Gods the Igigi after they refused to carry out the Labour of the Gods. This also connects with a Rebelion which i would show below.

"or are they just continuing to be 'dark angels' ?"

Well Ridley did refer to the Engineers are Dark Angels and that Shaw would find Devil and not God on Paradise..

This could mean basically that our Engineers are just plain Evil... or it could fit in with Rebelion... Dark Angels are Demons, Fallen Angels and Angels that rebelled against the Rule and Rules of God....  Rebelion could fit in with the Theme to Prometheus... the Prometheus Myth shows of Rebelion, the Annunaki Tale also of Rebelion, i feel this is a common theme that i do think would form the Basis for the Whole Plot of the Franchise.

The movie to me shows seeds of....

CREATOR = Creates Life in own image to serve = CREATION REBELS = Creation then Creates Creation in its own Image to Serve and this Creation also Rebels...

The movie has shown this in this fashion....  Engineers = Mankind = David 8 (Androids) but is this the Start?  i doubt it and i feel that indeed this carries on futher back and thus Engineers created and rebelled against their creators.... maybe it goes back futher than this also....

Engineers Rebelion lead to create Mankind maybe? or Mankind was created to replace Rebelious Engineers, but in some way we was created or upgrades in a way against the Agenda and Wishes of the Top of the Hierarchy Thus a mild connection to the Prometheus Myth and Also Rebelion of a 3rd of the Angels against God... Dark Angels (Fallen).  

This is what in the broad strokes i see has happening and its what i exploring with my Paradise draft, its just how the Xeno or related Ancestor fitted in with this..... But the Franchise and Ridley have hinted to the Xeno as merely Destroyer, Punishment and Bio Weapon to wipe out and wipe the slate clean!

something_real and big_dave thanks as always for your replies.

my questionsis based on the hypothesis that it was indeed the engineers that created mankind, which i don't think is the case, but i was just extrapolating that scenario

The movie however also points to another purpose... when Holloway says to David that Mankind created David because we could!  In which case David responds to Holloway how would he feel if Mankinds creators said the same about Mankind.

i know you had the next part as well about creating labour for  david etc etc, but at the same time, if that were the case, then surely that would mean that earth woul be in a kind of utopic, manual labour free state, which i doubt to be honest with you, so then i think the 'because we could' part still holds true. and that's the crux really for me....because at the end when weyland introduces david as his 'creation' the engineer doesn't react so well....which gets me thinking about what the engineers really view as life, and maybe even, what they understand as 'technology'. i think engineers might view robots as a threat to their xenomorph gods (can someone make a terminator vs aliens films please?)

anyway i agree with you in that the engineers just might be evil and sadistic themselves. i think they created damned species everywhere in space. they spread death. they make simply because they can...and that's it. they don't care or love their creations. 

Again maybe yes, you could be close to what Fox and Ridley now wish to show us, and that is our Engineers and their Hierarchy truly are nasty SOB’s who care not for their creations and create us and life because they could... but i think they need to really give us a explanation why and a Agenda for this...

Unless indeed a Faction of Engineers had created mankind without the consent of the other Engineers and who ever rules on Paradise?

My theories on Prometheus was always to loosely connect them to the Prometheus Myth, the Ancient Alien and culture connections, and see how all Religions seem to have some connection to each other and then fit that with Prometheus which led me to the closest thing as in the Annunaki Tale. But while Prometheus may have set out in that way.... loosely i think they are now doing a U-Turn.....

As far as Mankind and David 8 creation being a Labour Free Utopia i think that in the franchise the movie had not yet given us that, but the potential for this to be the case in future... but these Androids started to have problems and so they would never be used in such a large scale.