Ultimate Fresco Discusion....

BIGDAVE - This is an extremely compelling topic! I have often wondered a great deal about the fresco/mural you have highlighted. When I view the image, I immediately think of a creator gazing with pensive derision upon a failed experiment - an attempt to achieve something beautiful and perfect that instead gave way to something unforseen and horrid. However, the creator - in his shame - has chosen not to destroy that to which he gave life. Rather, he keeps his malformed creation hidden partially in the dark - never to speak of it, but to allow it to live as some penance. The creature did not choose to be created, thus the creator shows mercy, albeit mingled with disgust.

    This is an exceptionally fun topic to ponder! :)

in my opinion that image is purely an indicator of how the engineers view their creations, and it's not in a good way. the engineer does not seem to really care about or love that being, and seems to be distant, rmoved and almost condescending towards it. the expression on the being's face seem to lie somewhere between extreme sadness and powerlessness yet also gratefulness. i think it's a really tragic and mysterious image and the first time i saw it, it made me feel quite low.

@Something Real

A interesting observation and indeed i felt when i first saw it that it was somehow connected to creation as the Engineers/Space Jockey has a connection with the Xeno, and they are shown as being Genetic Engineers and Spaights ideas was that these Engineers was conducting experiments to create a variety of Xeno related Organisms.

But then i still had to wonder how did they come into contact with the Origins of the Xeno, was it a experiment and creation, or merely they created them or related from experiments on something they had came into contact with.... which then led me to the Prometheus Myth, and then how the Fresco indeed looked like the one image of Prometheus and the Eagle, this image that i posted looks very similar and other depictions of that event seem to show Prometheus with his arms and legs and head in similar pose.

@THANATOS_CONTAGION

Another interesting observation, and i will point you to above... i certainly think they play a part in Creation, and Experiements but i wonder if the Orgins of the Xeno was something they found, or their creators and thus Engineers was used as Hosts, or that the Xeno Orgins was something the Engineer creators or Heirachy had sent to the Engineers on LV 223 as Punishment or intended as such, but the Engineers saw this Punishment as actually Evolution and then held it in high regard for ritual puposes and then attempted to experiment on the Eagle sent by those on Paradise, to produce the Xeno or other related Organisms.

I can see what you both mean and are trying to get at..... but i dont see pride on that Engineers face, i see sorrow, dispare or discust....

Like maybe a Mother giving birth to a child and not liking the results and resenting and pushing away its Child.... it to me looks like either this or as the Prometheus Punishment.

So i guess yes kind of how you see it  THANATOS_CONTAGION

hey dave yeah, i guess that mixture of emotions that mentioned of extreme sadness and powerlessness yet also gratefulness, could also be called a melancholic resignation of sorts on the part of the non-engineer being in the fresco. i don't like the engineers at all so far!

BIGDAVE - Indeed! Another concept with which I have toyed is the premise that the being the Engineer is gazing down is, in fact, the progenitor species - the very race from which the Engineers arose. Perhaps, seeing that their forebearers were weak and monstrous, the Engineers rose up against them and pushed them down into the shadows - choosing to keep them alive and out of sight due to their unseemly nature. Who knows? Perhaps the Aliens (Xenos) are the species from which all other life arose - the perfect progenitor. If that is the case, then the Engineers may be attempting to unlock the mystery behind the function of the creator species and are doing so by using their own DNA to "seed" worlds. Perhaps they wish to understand how they - and other intelligent life - arose from such a monstrous and single-minded creature. A very interesting notion. :)

a perhaps obvious observation but one that maybe i should raise nonethelss.. does the crouching being in the fresco kind of look like a lamb to anyone else?

THTOS_CONTAGION - Now that is a very compelling thought! A sacrifice? Hmm...I must say that you certainly have raised an excellent and thought-provoking notion! For what reason would such a wretched and subserviant (in appearance) being be offered as a sacrifice? Is that image suggestive how the Engineers once "seeded" planets before deciding to use their own kind? How very fascinating! :)

The engineer in the mural looks like he may have had his stomach / side stitched up - interesting - could be a reversal of the original Prometheus premise (bird eats liver daily).  This time the bird is subservient..

DROP YOUR LINEN - Welcome to SCIFIED! It is always quite nice to see new faces! Your hypothesis is very interesting! Perhps you are on to a premise we have yet to fully see! Once again, welcome to SCIFIED! :)

@BigDave I know we have speculated on this subject before, but it’s always great to have fresh input from other minds. The more we delve into the fresco, the more questions arise! 

*Welcomes new members!*

Looking at this mural, [and I have looked at it many times, pondering over exactly what is going on] I now think that both figures appear resigned to some fate. The human-engineer figure has outstretched arms, a very sacrificial pose and the head is bowed.  Do you think that figure could be female, the hips and abdomen appear wider than that of male anatomy? The face also looks more feminine to me! Could she be the last of her kind? Is the bird-y-creature merely saddened because its’ master/mistress is going to die, be sacrificed? Are both being punished?

I also think that the bird-y-creature has much more significance than we might think. Take a look at this original concept image below~

Now doesn’t that look like ‘bird-y’ in the chair wearing the helmet and suit? Even what we perceived to be the Space Jockey’s mouth, from ALIEN, has that beak-like quality!

There’s another question that the murals raise~ WHO created them? Haha, yes I know they were designed by the genius hand of Giger, but in the context of the story they seem far too beautiful, sophisticated and refined to have been the creation of the clone-engineers of LV223. Most definitely the creation of something far superior, and highly advanced.

....and this concept Ampule Room Doorway gives even more credence to the idea that 'bird-y' has more significance!

....and if we look at how that mural changed/morphed when the atmosphere in the ampule room was tainted, it follows that either one, or both of those beings, somehow, resulted in the egg?

I still buy the idea of Punishment.....  if you would a failed one.... maybe if we ASSUME the Derelict was to Punish Mankind but failed, and then Weyland sucsesfully managed to obtain the Xeno and either use it... or experiment and reverse Engineer it to borrow and obtain Technology from it...

Is such a thing what the Engineers did with something sent to punish them?

This is the beauty of Prometheus and how they went for the Plot that they did.. it leaves so maybe Doors that can be opened and explored and no way to know which is the True way untill we reach our Finally and Destination...

A Massive Massive Clue could be how our Earlier Engineers looked from a time that if it was Earth is set say Billion Years ago and no signs of Bio-Tech only the Life Creating Black Goo.

Fast Forward to our Engineers and thier Bio-Tech, their Space Jockey Suits, the Architecture and designs of the ships all have that Giger Bio-Tech look that we see in the Xeno and its Hives.....  Does this connection come from the Engineers creating this Tech and the Xeno from it.... or is it borrowed and re-engineered from the Xeno.. or is there another Organism that is re-engineered that lead to the Technology and Xeno?

The Birdy plays a huge rule..... there is a connection... the Question is does this Organism pre-date the Xeno or its it from the Xeno?   

I think the Deacon in the Mural is something that has came from the Xeno or a common Ancestor to the Xeno....

The Birdy is in my eyes the Enigma and Missing Link which i discused in other Topic i  made in detail a long while ago..

The Purpose of this Topic was to discus the connection between the Fresco and the Adam and God Creation, or Prometheus Punishment and if you look at the Prometheus one then i feel it looks more similar of the two.... 

The Eagle has a Beak... so maybe our Birdy like Organism is connected?

I did cover this in another Topic, but if we are to go and make some connections to this Organism then we have seen it before... not in the movies however..

One of Gigers Face Hugers, shown with a Bald Humanoid in a suit that is similar to the Engineers pressure Suit....  Note we can kind of make a connection with this Face Huger to the Birdy Creature in the Mural than the Xeno.... also it has more connection to the Space Jockey Suits minus the Hose than the Xeno....

Not the first time we see our Birdy mind....

Here is O'Bannons idea for the Alien... this was what was the idea before Ridley fell in love with Gigers Necromonicon 4

This looks a lot like our Birdy in the Prometheus Fresco dont you think?

Here is the Mural and Sacrificial Room from Star Beast.... note Organism that is being used as the Host for the Star Beast looks a lot like our Birdy as far as O'Bannons design!

Does any of these works, make any relevance to Prometheus Fresco as far as borrowing ideas of the design and purpose? who knows?

I think we have been shown and especially in Prometheus unused ideas from Alien and Star Beast Concept works.... for years people wondered and some still see the Space Jockey as a Skeleton... but all along Gigers concept works i.e his Mural shows Beings in Space Suits Sacrificing its own kind... if you looked at the Giger Mural in the OP... ignore the helmet and look at the suit and its similar to our Engineers and then look at the suit in the Giger Mural and compare it to the Face Huger designs of Gigers Hosts... same suits, Bald Humanoids thus these ideas had been brought forwards to be used in Prometheus.... 

If we look at the Fresco Birdy, again it looks like one of the other designs for the Face Huger.... if we look at Gigers Mural for Alien note the Suits of the Beings in it look very much like our Space Jockey suits from Prometheus especially when you look at Prometheus concept works for them... again using ideas based of earlier concepts...

The Star Beast Mural in previous post, has a Sacrificial Host that we can make a connection with O'Bannons design and latter our Prometheus Fresco creature and Gigers Birdy like Face Hugers...

Study the Star Beast Mural again and look at the Chest Buster.... This looks like the fully grown Trillobite from Prometheus?    So what i am saying is we cant rule out that they would use other old concept works and ideas to maybe explain the orgins and connection to the Xeno and Engineers etc .... 

The source i got who told me some supposed leaks from Prometheus 2 said that they are using some ideas from Star Beast that was never evolved into Alien and they could be using some of these ideas as far as Sacrifice and Ritual Purposes in Prometheus 2 to give us more clues and connections...  Maybe they could be correct?  We shall have to wait and see.

As far as Female, i dont think it does but then can we assume that Females have to have breast...? Not if they do not breast feed their young so who knows.. but i think its a Engineer and they are all just same sex.

"Perhaps the Aliens (Xenos) are the species from which all other life arose - the perfect progenitor"

The idea that this creature could be what gave arise to our Xenos and Engineers is a interesting one, but we cant be sure. we have to ask why do they not have similar traits? But thats not to say that they are not created by and not created from this Organism...

There is a connection between this Organism and the Space Jockey Suits and Xeno and Engineers Bio-Tech there has to be some kind of connection, one has to either come from the other is borrowed from the other or they both come from a common Process or other Creation/Creator.. we just cant seem to 100% confirm what connection there is as far as the Process and Order but only that there has to be a connection.

I am still buying into the idea of these Engineers and Angels and thus Godlike servants and creations that are in the image to a degree of their creators and so not Genetically related to the Xeno....

The Xeno maybe is a result of this Creature in the Fresco mixed with Engineers Bio-Tech but then why does the Space Jockey suits have a connection to the Birdy in a way and the Arch above the Mural Room... in the concept design.... 

I still wonder and see the Engineers as like the Borg in Star Trek they go around Genetically seeding Worlds and experimenting upon their creations in order to create many things in the pursuit of perfection?    

Was something found by a faction or their creators and used as punishment on the Engineers who then inturn re-engineered this Organism to create its Bio-Tech?   Or do the Engineers visit Worlds they can Teraform and then come across a long dead Planet like in Star Beast that had life before that was not created by the Engineers or their creators and then Engineers when investigating such a World came across Ancient Pyramid or Temples of some Long gone Ancient Race/Creature and they then got infected and saw the results and began to Borrow of this Organism and re-engineer this Organism to use its best traits and genes....   was the Engineers then tasked with spreading this Organisms Life Cycle for some purpose and maybe these Engineers created Mankind so Mankind could be used for this purpose?  so then a new varient of this Organism is sent to Punish the Faction of Engineers on LV 223 but these Engineers then re-engineered the Organism or saw the results as created the Perfect Organism to then use its DNA to Seed worlds instead of the Engineers?

I feel that some of these ideas could be losely what we as being shown but i could be wrong and also we cant be sure if they are changing their minds as to how we would be shown any connections.

I dont mind not seeing Xeno or LV 426 ones but would like to see what connection the Fresco on LV 223 had with Engineers and how their Bio-Tech and Space Jockey suits came to be... as the answer to that could give us enough clues to the Xeno.

hey guys cool stuff here. can we maybe speculate a bit about how the engineers maybe interpret their senses? like i think the engineers in the murals and prometheus do not see pain in the same way as humans or other beings do. is there any chance that they are understanding the sensation of pain in a completely different way? i think they've been duped or duped themselves into worshipping it. what do you think?

Awesome topic! Ive been away for some while but i still browse the forums for activity. Just thought i add a little tidbit to feast upon. Here is a fresco in Iraq of an Annunaki Bird man, known to be the warrior caste.

The "Pine Cone" he is holding is thought to be the symbol for intelligence, much like how egyptians frescos use the Ankh for "Life". The bag in the other hand is said to be a container for DNA. So from this pic you can deduce that the being is pulling intelligence (fire) from his "bag of tricks" to give to a man.

What could also be telling is that the Ankh is the symbol for life, while the Cross is the symbol for DEATH.

Reminds me of David's comment when he takes the cross from shaw. "I need to take this, it could be contaminated." I dont want to turn this into a theological debate, but it puts a spin on the whole Jesus event whereas many believe him to be the prince of peace when in fact he may be a "serpent" in disguise pretty much going around and convincing people to willingly give up their lives "to be with God". While the humans may have believed this to be a good thing, its pretty much saying, within the context of the prometheus movie, that he came to tell the people not to fight back and to die. Sounds like Satan's goal to me. Shaw did say "God didnt try to kill me" then takes her cross back.....giving it new meaning than just regaining her faith......she wants to go where they came from.....with a ship of their own "medicine". 

The Pine cone is seen all throughout the vatican.

This raises many questions...why is a warrior caste even being involved in the genetics.....most of the other annunaki frescos show the typical bearded giants with wings doing all the "creation". Is this a "lucifer" type being......taking the fire and making his own creation?

The third eye is called the Pineal Gland, is about the size of a grain of rice, contains water and is coated with the same receptors that your eyes are. It is shaped like a pine cone. Whenever you imagine/picture something in your mind, the image you are seeing is produced by your pineal gland. Its almost as if the original humans were android like....much like david, but someone/something changed them to have "free will" and knowledge of good and evil. Once adam and eve ate the fruit they hid from god. The church will tell you it was out of shame, but what if it was out of fear? Did they realize that "God" was evil? There are some legends that they werent banished from eden, they were FREED and ran away willingly.  I know im getting into some heavy territory, but what if the original creators just kept going around trying to make the perfect slave, setting themselves up as the gods, but the same thing keeps happening to them, the slaves are freed and educated, overtake the masters "rightfully so", and the cycle repeats.....just like the Prometheus Myth.

Another take on the Jesus event is that he came here to be harbringer of death, much like the Silver Surfer/Galactus relationship, but ended up siding with the humans, telling them the truth and giving them the "eternal flame" of life. From the engineers POV this is like the ultimate betrayal and not only do the humans now know the truth, they have raised Jesus to be GOD instead of the "slavemasters". Prometheus myth all over again.

OP

Pain has always been there as a method of warning you to stop doing something because prolonged exposure to whatever causes the pain might eventually kill you. If we talk about spiritual pain then well that would be different thing.

Interesting question.