THE ENGINEERS DID NOT CREATE MANKIND

Maybe we created them? They are ourselves in a 1000 years or so.

Weyland industries could have been working on FTL travel and something went horribly wrong and created a paradox....or...... Weyland Yutani were working with some alien artifact that caused a time fracture?

Maybe the Engineers were messing with time travel and got themselves stuck in the past? and had to give themselves clues(cave paintings) to close the time loop? And by traveling to LV223 Peter Weyland and the Prometheus closed it...

Or the Engineers are just time traveling versions of ourselves? Mucking about with history.

Maybe the Engineers on LV223 are/were a splinter group or a death cult. with different views then the Paradise Engineers and would like both cultures dead.

I don't know...it's SCI-FI and anything is possible.

hey guys tranks for the welocme. i don't know anout the we created them scenario. i think it's too technical a scenario for the ridley scott alien/engineer universe but you never know! Oduodu for some reason your post cuts off and i can only read up to the part our dna being exact matches.Aas for the dna matching, well, for all that we know the dna code of intelligent sentinet beings could be exactly matching everywhere in the universe! what it depends on is what the attitude of each sentient species is upon discovery of others in the cosmos. i think that the engineers might be extremely undeveloped by these criteria.

Are you forgetting about the Big white dude in the opening scene?

He broke himself down, and that genetic material obviously "planted the seeds" for us. 

Probably at someone else's instructions, mind you ( just like the Annunaki story) 

or or there is the 2 Factions of Engineer theory...

I'm sure the writers have a very good idea of what they're doing.

The writers of Prometheus certainly did, and it's been posited more than once that there was at least a basic framework already in place for what's to come. Do they look here for ideas? Well, given the quality of imagination here I wouldn't begrudge them doing so.

The only reason I'm not comfortable with the idea of Engineers not creating humankind is that it suggests that the human form is then the default template in the universe, which sorta limits the creative possibilities.

Now, one could argue that that was already done, by providing the Engineers with a human form. But Shaw wonders out loud who made them, and I don't think that's a bit of offhand dialog. I think that question will factor heavily into the sequel. And we may find that the Engineers are nothing like their creators, just like a hammer is nothing like a human.

Obviously, these are my personal hopes I'm talking about, but I don't think I'm being overly optimistic. Inasmuch as Ridley has said "no more dragons", I don't interpret that as "no more fantastic forms". We look to these movies for dark, mind boggling depictions of biology, we got them in Prometheus and I do believe they intend to take it to the next level in Prometheus 2.

FLESHVESSEL, you're making the same mistake that all the people leading the prometheus voyage did and that mistake is ASSUMPTION. the engineer at the beginning is NOT on earth. In no place in the film is it absolutely stated that there is a connection between the first scene and the murals. this is what holloway and shaw ASSUMED, that the engineers created life on earth, when in fact at the end she realises that no, they did NOT.

"The only reason I'm not comfortable with the idea of Engineers not creating humankind is that it suggests that the human form is then the default template in the universe, which sorta limits the creative possibilities."

what? how does that work? the engineers not creating humankind implies that creation is NOT what we think it is, and works in a completely different way, a more mysterious and fascinating way. think about the scene with holloway and shaw in the lovemaking scene. holloway completely reduces existence by essentially saying: "meh anyone can create life" and then the black goo stuff happens, leading to what is essentially a virgin birth of the facehugger, and following on the deacon. if creation was that simple, surely that scene shows that it is NOT simple at all. a new monstrous species let out onto the universe because it was just created randomly. and this is the other point. ultimately what prometheus seems to be about is what exactly 'meaning' 'means', and it becomes pretty clear that for the people leading the voyage, weyland especially, meaning as a term is intimately entwined with personal authorty/conquest/power, which is of course their downfall. they're all going to this place because deep down, they want to self annihilate and they choose to ignore this fact.

and one final thing: the fact they ignore whilst self annihilating of course is DAVID. David is essentially the Son Of Man! Weyland didn't even have to go to some moon billions of light years away - the key to immortality was sitting right under his nose.

"Interesting idea none the less. Welcome !!Why's their and our dna so similar ?? Are you saying that the giant pointing to the stars in the cave drawing is a race above the engineers ?? is the installation on lv 223 something they built or stole from someone else ??"

no what i'm saying is far simpler than that, i'm saying the giant posting to the stars is a trap set up by the engineers to lure any potential developing sentient universe competition to their deaths. i think the engineers put the mural there so as to bait a moment of superstition during civilizational progress and have the indigenous sentients assume it was an invitation from their makers, when they're not. LV-223 is basically just the gingerbread house.

so you are saying that the engineer sacrificing himself at the start of the movie was just doing that to form life like insects and such ?? not humans ??

 if not

what was the purpose of the sacrifice then ??

you theory is an interesting one.

It could be possible. After all, Elizabeth speculated in the film that the engineers were probably made by someone, possibly the creator.

Welcome aboard THANATOS_CONTAGION  some very interesting and pasionate ideas, some which we cant really rule out and ill come to them soon... i would advise however and dont take this bad, that the replies you but can be misjudged as a bit over oppinionated and defencive, it seems you have a lot of valid views and if they are put into a certain manner i am sure you have lots of pleasant debates on here..

"Are you forgetting about the Big white dude in the opening scene?"

As THANTOS said, this does not have to be Earth it can be any place, Ridley said this is just how our Engineers do their seeding, i will however add that what Ridley says and what they was trying to show is that yes, this may not be Earth but bet your bottom dollar that the Engineers did the same thing to create us, we are not unique these Engineers would have created life on many many worlds.

"I'm sure the writers have a very good idea of what they're doing."

To a degree... they had bitten off more than they could chew, the scope of the movie was too vast, and they opened a can or worms... basically the plot Spaights was going for that Lindeloff and Ridley chose to follow more, was one that was very bold and going that route and then trying to add to it left us with a massive plot potential that is VERY TRICKY to do justice and get right!

I think they realised they had bitten off more than they can chew and so they have proceeded to make a U-Turn and tone down this Ancient Man and Gods element, this is why maybe the Elders Scene, the full Engineer speaks Scene and other Scenes regarding our Engineers was cut...... they want to simplyfy it as they have undertaken a MASSIVE TASK

I dont blame them because this plot was one of the most wonderful things about the movie, but it is such a plot that had to be carefully thought out, get it right and we are looking at MAGIC get it wrong and we looking at DISASTER.  i myself had ideas for Prometheus 2 and 3 and it was quite simple really apart from that Engineers = Gods and creators Aspect...  now that was hard work and i still could not come up with a certain set in stone explanation as each one posed problems....

I will now explain the Shaws... "we was wrong" comment...

She hoped to find a place that these creators of Mankind left for us to find, hoping she would find out the reason for our creation, and find a race or beings that would be as Godly as far as the creators and nurtures of life...

What they found was a place that was working on creating some horrific experiments that was intended in part for Mankind.... she was wanting to find out about our creation and reasons behind it, but instead found only a place itended for death for us....

Now we can come to your... Trap Idea..... This is not the first person to have this idea not at all....

But on the one hand why go through all that effort to create us, to then set a trap for us to go to LV 223 and stumble upon the Black Goo and come to our deaths....

Why not come down and wipe us out, its a massive ASSUMPTION  these Engineers had that we may one day find LV 223, and its then a massive ASSUMPTION  we would not create beings that can read and use Engineers Technology as their is a unseen circumstance where we may  be able to read and use their Technology and if we then learn where they come from, it could be us who then unleash this HELL on them...

This is where David steps in...

But to a degree yes, the above could be true..... These Engineers never thought we pose a threat as far as use their stuff, but we would simply fall into the Trap...

I myself dont buy that, i do think the Engineer did not agree we had to be wiped out and so their may had been a difference of oppinion as far as if we should be saved or not or simply left to our own devices, because without their help they ASSUMED we would never evolve to be able to reach LV 223, and if we did, well we would come undone by whats left behind.

I felt the Last Engineer then realised that Mankind could reach their outpost, that Mankind is indeed a selfish and greedy Race who want to be as Gods (Weyland) and dont care for their own kind (Shaw) and they can not only reach this place but they have also created life in their own Image (David)  who can speak Engineeer and thus could pose a threat and be able to allow Mankind to get its hands on their Engineers Technology and Secrets and thus we (Mankind)  or our creation (David) could become the Gods now..

The Engineer could not allow that and resumed the mission his brothers had set to complete....

The Last Engineer thus maybe like the God from the various Ancient accounts of a Great Flood as the one who warns Noah about the impending plan and destruction and offers him a way to save Mankind.... you have to look into all acounts of the Deluge and not just Bible one to see what i mean...

HOWEVER....

There seems to be a U-Turn as far as our Engineers and so this is not the case... our Engineers are in essence to their creators as David is to us, they are expendble and are there for a purpose...

How and why, we shall find out in Prometheus 2 but its not more Gods... but something more sinister... i guess we need wait and see.

"so you are saying that the engineer sacrificing himself at the start of the movie was just doing that to form life like insects and such ?? not humans ??

 if not

what was the purpose of the sacrifice then ??

you theory is an interesting one."

hey oduodu. I think what my hypothesis revolves around is that engineers went from a starting point of believeing they were alone in the universe. I think they went from planet to planet trying to create sentient life as a way of trying to find meaning to their own existence, but saw each time that creating sentient, intelligent, life was near impossible. At some point they stumbled on earth in their travels and found an intelligent, sentient population there that challenged their assumptions that the universe was solely built for them and that made them feel very nervous about all their beliefs. As such I think those murals were placed there so as to lure that population which they interpreted as a possible future threat to their assumed supremacy to its' annihilation.

ps> many apologies if i came across as rude of overbearing in any of my previous posts. got a little too excited!

Im gonna be busy weekend but will post something in few days, that i have heard off someone who claims to have some ideas of what Promethues 2 is going for, again i am not sure its its true, BS or what ever.... but i will post on here few days as i saw this persons friend other day who 6 months ago informed me about some concept work for Prometheus 2...

I gonna put them down as not FACT untill stuff Fox and Ridley come out with seems to match.... but if what this person says is kinda the path, then it is a total U-Turn on the ideas of Prometheus and some that would well need some explantion as far as how it dont add up to what Prometheus was trying to show...

It is a very very sinister plot mind and one that indeed, THANATOS_CONTAGION does mirror some of things you have been getting at...

Like i said, Spaights ideas some they went to follow more, Engineers and Creation, while others they tonned down The Xeno Experiments....   but now could be they are tonning down the Engineers/Gods connection and touching kind of the Xeno connection...

I will cover this after the weekend but in a nutshell yes, the Engineers are not God, or Gods, and the movie could provide more of a LV 223/426 link in one plot and a more Sinster creator plot in the other, that is very much Giger.... some ideas of the connections are based on Gigers visions and also some unused Star Beast Material.

Sad to see the whole Engineers= who we worshiped as Gods, angle being diluted for a more very sinister plot..

ps> many apologies if i came across as rude of overbearing in any of my previous posts. got a little too excited!

Not to worry i understand where you are comming from, you are pasionate and have some good ideas and i am sure you would be a massive welcome to many a debate on here ;)

I like where your going to a degree, you are off as far as what Prometheus WAS about but not so OFF as far as where it could be going ;)

"ps> many apologies if i came across as rude of overbearing in any of my previous posts. got a little too excited!

Not to worry i understand where you are comming from, you are pasionate and have some good ideas and i am sure you would be amassive welcome to many a debate on here ;)

I like where your going to a degree, you are off as far as what Prometheus WAS about but not so OFF as far as where it could be going ;)"

hey man thank you for the nice words! Well i suppose that my hypothesis tried to take on the influence of lindelhof being involved with the script into account. Lindelhof always leaves everything open to the point of ambiguity, and he intentionally misleads so much as well so i tried to view it from that perspective I guess.

nice to meet and chat with you all!

THANATOS_CONTAGION - Greetings, and welcome to SCIFIED! It is always quite agreeable to see new faces here! I am very compelled by your statements - especially your divergence from the nomramlly accepted leans with regards to Prometheus' mythology. Personally, I have always assumed that the Engineer fellow displayed in the film's opening could have been on any planet in the known galaxy. His inclusion, in my opinion, was simply to illustrate that his species takes it upon itself to bring life to barren worlds it discovers on while journeying amidst the stars. However, the possibilities are endless! Though I rather doubt it, what we witnessed at the film's get-go could simply have been some goofball drinking the wrong cocktail. "Ah! What a lovely afternoon. I think I'll have a nice drop while I enjoy the breeze...Oh, hang it all; I grabbed the molecular disriuption serum instead of the Sprite Zero. Well, this is somewhat embarrassing..." Regardless, I greatly enjoyed reading your hypothesis! Thank you ever so much for sharing your thoughts with us and, once more, welcome to SCIFIED! :)

"His inclusion, in my opinion, was simply to illustrate that his species takes it upon itself to bring life to barren worlds it discovers on while journeying amidst the stars."

first off thanks for the welcome something_real! your quote above is exactly what i'm getting at. my hypothesis is that the engineers indeed went from planet to plant creating life, until they stumbled on earth and saw life there was pre-existing, without their interference. Imagine that from the engineers' perspective.

Indeed if that scene could be on any Planet, then it also be at anytime and it does not therefore have to had occuried on Earth.

But the movie and hints and also the aim Ridley was going for with Spaights draft was indeed that we are a result of these Engineers Genetic Experiments created in their image.

As far as the "my hypothesis is that the engineers indeed went from planet to plant creating life, until they stumbled on earth and saw life there was pre-existing" comment.

I think this holds merit but not in relation to Earth but the Xeno, i think yes they could have gone Planet to Planet creating life but then they came across pre-existing Life on a World that had no link or relation to their experiments.

The said lifeform they came across was something they admired or the result of the Life Form, and our Engineers or a faction of them, then proceeded to experiment and involve this Organism in their own Genetic Experiments as they found it to be PERFECT or at bery least they admired how this Organism came to be, as it was on a World that had never been Terra-formed or Engineered by our Engineers...

That in part was my theory i.e the Xeno is one lifeform they found and never created, or at least as far as the Xeno Origins goes.

But that may not be the case.

interesting ideas bigdave!

i immediately thought of a comment david made about the engineers: "mortal after all"

i think given how advanced technologically the engineers are, I am inclined to say that the xenomorphs are creations of the engineers as oppsed to an indigenous species. why? well i look at it this way: I think the xenomorph in terms of its' (strange) form is almost like the somatic manifestion of some kind of dark bioparametric algorithms. i think the engineers are fallen angels to cut the long story short, who found this 'black goo' and interprted it as being the materialisation of time - which would allow them in their minds to overpower God - making them the lords of time. After many yeats of analysis and experimentation they found what effects it had and analysed the data, extrapolated its' parameters and that led them to rendering the xenomorphs. Now, the xenomorphs to them are God beings in my opinion as they seem to be capable of enduring a possibly eternal model of the universe, thus making them impregnable to any wrath they could possibly face for their misdemeanours. there's still holes in my ideas but that is a general outline.

one final thing it's interesting to try and draw a parallel between  the first alien poster http://www.imdb.com/media/rm191678720/tt0078748?ref_=tt_ov_i and this here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphic_Egg#/media/File:Orphic-egg.png

Interesting to say the least...

There has to be a connection between our Engineers and their Bio-Mechanical Technology and Construction Material / Architecture  and the Xeno and its Construction Material and look.

i.e Xeno Hives and Derelict/Jugernaughts and also the Urns and Mural and Fresco... 

So while the Engineers DNA is shared to a degree with us, their whole Technology as far as Bio-Mechanical Giger Look is connected to the Xeno, we just dont know how/when and why.

Hopefully the next movie will show us that...

I have posted a Topic based on what i said one person had told me thursday night regarding potential plot points....

If this is true or even if not but the movie choses to go for similar route, indeed there could be a connection to the Goo and Xeno and how it is connected to all creation...

So the ideas you have do sit kind of with those... if thats what is happening we shall see..

But the franchise does look like taking a step away from how the Engineers was portrayed during production of Prometheus...  So no representation of say the old Gods i.e Greek and the creation of Mankind just as those ancient cultures believed and then intended destruction because we disfavoured them.

THANATOS_CONTAGION - I am intrigued by your assertions. If there is one thing in which I have found the most enigmatic qualities with relation to Prometheus' mythology, it is the connection between humans, engineers and the strange life-forms often named xenomorphs. This girl has boggled her mind for quite some time in an effort to make connections! However, my boggling has not been without some possible headway. Taking a small step back, I have sometimes wondered (and this is nothing more than fanciful conjecture) if the xenomorph predates the human and engineer species. Is it possible that the Alien is actually the genetic ancestor of our race and those that presumed to destroy us? Perhaps it is that the engineers somehow became aware of the fact that the xenomorph is actually the "dominant" genetic expression of the galaxy and - in their hubris - deigned to control it out of some misguided desire to leash what they viewed as a deific power. I know that sounds rather far-fetched, and I would be the first to agree that it is; however, I believe that the possibility holds some potential. Even so, this is a most engaging conversation! :)

ok so i can't fully reply to both of you now but i can tomorrow until then - i guess all i can say about the black goo is think of it as liquid dark energy/matter.

Well Something Real

I have studied and looked at and tried to make sense of the puzzle that is Prometheus but it has missing peices, but when i tried to fill those gaps in by cross referencing the evolution of Spaights to Lindelofs drafts i had come to some conclusions, well using that helped concrete my conclusions...

I wont go into detail again, but if you check many Black Goo subjects then you would find out my theory etc..

However and indeed it could be they are going for a route that is more similar to your idea so its not far fetched and also THANATOS_CONTAGION their ideas could also be closer to the path they are taking as opposed to those that the movie and certainly concept work and shooting draft would have showed us.

THANATOS_CONTAGION - I look forward to the continuance of this exchange! :)

BIGDAVE - I have given your Black Goo hypothesis a good look and, I must say, it was quite fascinating! Your ideas are extremely well-developed and fun to consider! :)

Just looking at what we see logically on screen and trying to fit it all in together... once you look at the concept work and alternative Fifields that never got used, it seems they was working on a Animatronic Fifeld when they was starting to shoot Prometheus but this was canned, they got Sean Harris to perform the scene and then CGI overlay the alternative Fifield but then Ridley prefered the work Sean Harris did...

Once we look at the other concept ideas, and take into account the Spaights Sacrifical Bowl and Urns have same purpose, just Goo vs Nano Scarabs.. then the connection is simple.

This is not however the way they are going, not by a long shot...

Another thing that well my theory had problems with is well the Eye Worm of Holloway... i have a few theories on that, but each has a hole in it... that being each asks... how come we saw just that one Eye worm?

Then the other theory well one of those is that actually either

1) The Goo is not Goo, now not being rude.. but Seamen aka Sperm looks like a Goo dont it, a slime, but its not its made up of Millions of Sperm Cells, like 200 Million and they are microscopic....  Could the Goo contain microscopic Worm thingys... that basically function the same as Spaights Nano Scarabs?

2) or the contents of the vials in the ampoules contain such microworms that are genetically related to the Xeno somehow?

Who knows its a bit odd, and one element that kind of does not fit perfectly.... the only other theories was the Eye Worm is a evolved Sperm that got lose into his Eye and this would assume he may have many more inside him?  Or if not evolved sperm, or even a worm like organism that the Goo contains, then maybe the Goo either evolved some other cells in his body... or maybe he was carrying a Parasite, that the goo evolved?

Maybe i should re-do my Black Goo theory that i concluded in a VS the Fox version in the released Weyland Fact File... and then pick holes in mine and that one... and you do find the Fox one, makes no sense in some areas.... just as much a kinda full of holes as other elements to Prometheus had.

BIGDAVE - Hmm...your proposals are quite interesting! You have definately given me quite a bit to consider! :)

it'd be interesting if we could see sex, as it was used by Giger in his art, and in Alien (especially when you can hear what the Xeno is doing to Veronica Cartright right before she gets it), linked to the Engineers' creation of man- i.e goo, sperm, etc. without it being silly