The FINAL Canon Debate

Hercules, all that I have mentioned about Giler is common knowledge to any Alien fan

Snorklebotton, I've been collecting [i]Alien[/i] ephemera since buying an issue of [i]Heavy Metal[/i] in the June of 1978. Not only have I collected and examined books and magazines over the past 34 years, I have watched countless documentaries. I would like to think I'm an [i]Alien[/i] fan. Aside from some rewrites and wrestling [i]Alien[/i] away from O'Bannon and Shusett, Giler isn't being portrayed as the boogeyman that you see. That being said, allow me to watch the [i]AVP[/i] DVD supplements to see what extent Giler had with those movies. If any of what you said is "common knowledge to any [i]Alien[/i] fan", then I (or anybody else) should be able to see what you say as being true. You know the old saying: "Trust, but verify." :)

Verify as in David Giler saying he didn't want Alien R to be made, but not only gave the greenlight for the film but then told Whedon to rewrite his screenplay with Ripley not Newt being cloned, and then accepting a lions share paycheck. Verify as in David Giler giving the greenlight for both AVP and AVPR, demanding AVP be a PG-13 so that it would make more money, allowing the rights to be used for the laserquest game at whichever attraction it is, none of that could have gone ahead with Gilers say so. And I never said Giler was a boogeyman, I said he was an as*hole, an opinion held by all the names mentioned above - in fact it wouldn't surprise me if it was Giler that suggested Lindelof rewrite Spaihts' screenplay.

[i]Verify as in David Giler saying he didn't want Alien R to be made, but not only gave the greenlight for the film but then told Whedon to rewrite his screenplay with Ripley not Newt being cloned, and then accepting a lions share paycheck. Verify as in David Giler giving the greenlight for both AVP and AVPR, demanding AVP be a PG-13 so that it would make more money, allowing the rights to be used for the laserquest game at whichever attraction it is, none of that could have gone ahead with Gilers say so.[/i] Okay... [url]http://alienseries.blogspot.com/2012/08/path-to-prometheus.html[/url] [i]And I never said Giler was a boogeyman, I said he was an as*hole[/i] I was using a figure of speech. [i]in fact it wouldn't surprise me if it was Giler that suggested Lindelof rewrite Spaihts' screenplay.[/i] Too bad it wasn't. Well, my three-hour breakfast is over, so I gotta earn a "lion's share of a paycheck" of my own. If I get back early enough from my flight this evening, I might stop in here before tracking down a DVD or Blu ray of [i]AVP[/i] or [i]AVP:R[/i]. May you and the others have a great day! : )

[i]Giler and Hill as per Alien 3[/i] According to Hill, both were "sick of it" and wanted to put an end to the series. As on Alien, they took over writing the script (they walked at one point when Fincher brought in Rex Pickett, who submitted a new draft with a note attached that insulted the film's producers). Giler's antagonising of Fincher only went as far as calling him a "shoe salesman" - the thorn in Fincher's side was Jon Landau, a complete milquetoast of a man and a producer for James Cameron since the mid 90's. Giler's demands on Alien 3 gave us the chestburster at the end; the dog/ox change was Fincher's idea, as he didn't think the ox footage was up to par; because a dog monster had been done in The Thing, and because he reckoned an ox was too docile a host to explain the Alien's "ravenous attack mode". For any of the film's faults, Hill admitted, "certainly some of that is our fault," and said the script wasn't as good as Alien's. On the making of DVD, Giler says the film failed to be scary when it should have been. [i]Giler and Hill as per Alien R[/i] Walter Hill: "We had nothing to do with that one, didn't even think it was a good idea for starters, we thought we had ended the series. And our relationship with the studio had deteriorated more ... Our only real function was telling the studio that the script they developed without our input wasn't any good and wouldn't work." Fox are obliged to credit Brandywine no matter how small their contributions and involvement (or how testy their relationship), just as they have to credit Dan O'Bannon and Ron Shussett. Diane O'Bannon still has to be notified of any further Alien films and receives. As for AVP, the reason it didn't get made in the 90's was because of the broken relationship Hill, Giler, and Joel Silver. The film was only greenlit because they all mutually agreed to it; from there, Fox made the film on Anderson's back, and even with consultation with Dan O'Bannon (who suggested that the Alien should evolve into a Predator, to make for some relationship between the two - O'Bannon had originally imagined that his Alien would become some creature of culture). No doubt about it, Giler IS an asshole - he routinely trashed O'Bannon; made up stories about what he added to Alien (like Jones the cat, who was present in Dan's script, albeit unnamed); claimed Cameron's payment for the Aliens screenplay; and then shrugged off the series after what seems to have been a halfhearted attempt at writing Alien 3 ("we felt we were working in handcuffs," said Hill, "plot moves that had been committed to that we didn't agree with ... we did our best and went home"). To lay A:R as well as both AVPs solely on his head is to ignore the push of Twentieth Century Fox and about a dozen other integral and creative people involved in the process. Yeah, those arguably films couldn't have been made if Giler said otherwise (though it didn't stop Fox from making A:R despite Brandywine's protestations), but they also required a "yes" from Walter Hill and, in the case of AVP, Joel Silver. Additionally, if there's any evidence of Giler being actively involved in A:R and both AVPS, I'd like to see it. References please.

Regards the AVP's giler gave his permission, knowing he would make a pretty penny from the idea, regards Alien R, it was Giler whom demanded Whedon change his original screenplay to have Ripley be cloned (originally it was Newt), because as Giler put it - "You can't have an Alien film without the central character"... funny I thought the central character was the Alien, not the stupid b**ch that keeps getting away. What Giler really meant was - Without Weaver this film won't sell, I'll make no money and thus there's no point.

[i]Regards the AVP's giler gave his permission, knowing he would make a pretty penny from the idea[/i] As did Walter Hill, Joel Silver, and O'Bannon, who was consulted on the story and given a co-story credit for Anderson reusing the pyramid and ancient alien angle. [i]regards Alien R, it was Giler whom demanded Whedon change his original screenplay to have Ripley be cloned (originally it was Newt), because as Giler put it - "You can't have an Alien film without the central character"[/i] Gonna need a reference for that. Nevertheless, Giler and Hill were marginalised on that film and by their own account had no creative input. Where's the evidence otherwise, I need to see it. [i]What Giler really meant was - Without Weaver this film won't sell, I'll make no money and thus there's no point.[/i] Same thing Tom Rothman said for Alien 3. Of course, as before, a reference is needed. Whedon himself has only ever namechecked Fox brass, not Brandywine.

@ Valaquen, watch the second disc if the Alien R special edition DVD for your references. As fun as this Giler bashing is, time to get back to topic.

I think we can't oficially prove it isn't canon but we also can't prove it is. So, it should be up to each of us to decide. For me, it isn't.

@ Xenomorph 54, Which in turn is the problem. Look at other franchises... Gears of War - creators Epic games have officially announced that the games, the comics and the novels are all canon. Star Wars - Lucas as officially announced that their are three levels of canonicity, THE canon which is the film, ALTERNATE canon which is the games, novels, comics, cartoons etc. and FAN fiction which covers everything else. ...What we need is an official statement from FOX/Brandywine clearly defining what is and what isn't canon, because until then we are just going to go round in circles. @ ETB, Having looked into corporate recognization, it appears that all a company needs to be recognized is a "certificate of incorporation", of which you mentioned before. Yet it appears the name on the company is of little importance, It is the business number that is important. Furthermore a certificate, as is the case with land-deeds can be sold and bought or cancelled. Turns out corporate law allows a company to exist, and then falter, and a new company with the same name as the previous failed company to emerge. In fact two companies can exist with the same name, even the same logo, unless the company name and/or logo is patented. Which mutes the who corporate timeline argument, I believe.

@Snork: What are you getting at with you last post? Where did you get your information from? The company name is very important. If Weyland Corp did dissolve after AVP, who is Peter Weyland buying the Certificate off? Well we know he got it from Companies House for his new company. That would mean that Weyland Corp in AVP would be finished. Although we were told by Charles Bishop Weyland that nothing drastic was going to happen to the company when he was gone. I think it’s crazy that a company that big would fall apart after one man dying. Are you saying that Weyland Corp in AVP is dead and the Weyland Corp in Prometheus is a different and new company? [i]Turns out corporate law allows a company to exist, and then falter, and a new company with the same name as the previous failed company to emerge.[/i] I’m pretty sure that there are restrictions in place to stop things like that happening. Well, you can have the name but to completely replicate a previous company, I’m not so sure. The timeline argument isn’t moot yet. Some other things here: At 36 seconds in on AVPR with the Tom Woodruff commentary: Tom Woodruff: we were brought in on this project obviously because of our history with the franchise , AVP franchise as well as the alien franchise. So they are separate then? At 02:36 minutes in AVPR with the directors commentary: Greg : this is the trophy room. We had fun there. If you look up on the right, there’s the space jockey. I think that’s a cousin of the jockey that was in Ridley’s movie. Colin: second cousin, I think. Yeah. Looks nothing like a Space Jockey (Engineer) skull. We all know what a Space Jockey (Engineer) looks like and they don’t look like that. Infact it isn’t even a skull it’s a helmet on a trophy wall for skulls. What’s even worse, that’s not how they look. At the end (1:30:45) of AVPR they say: (In reference to Yutani) (Directors) John: What is the linkage? Colin: well, the idea with this scene was to show how did the technology get so good by Alien? Greg: we seen Weyland in the last movie, so the idea was….. Now we’ve established Yutani, and that she’s some sort of evil corporate power. (Alec and Tom) Alec: well there is the one tag here with Ms Yutani. So we’ve seen Charles Weyland in the last film, who’s the father of modern robotics. We now know that all the technology is so good by Alien because of Peter Weyland. He and his Company created everything. AVPR is trying to say that Yutani developed the technology for space travel from reverse engineering predator technology. FTL Space travel was developed by Weyland industries. Keeping with the timeline, it says: [i]After years of litigation, Weyland wins the David patent lawsuit against the Japanese start-up Yutani Corporation, effectively protecting the investments of both Weyland Industries and its shareholders.[/i] (A startup company or startup is a company with a limited operating history. These companies, generally newly created, are in a phase of development and research for markets. start-up company: A new business venture that seeks private financing.) No way is Yutani going be considered a start-up company after 25 years. Another thing, in the AVP commentary Anderson says that he wanted casting continuity with the Alien films. He picked Bishop because he was an android in Aliens and Alien3. You have been saying that maybe Peter Weyland wrote Charles out of company history. You are also saying that Peter Weyland’s Company is different from Charles’ company. If that’s the case why would Peter Weyland’s company design an android based on someone wrote out of history or from another company?

Does by any chance think about that one scene in the beginning of Prometheus where the crew are briefed and they show the hieroglyphs matching up the idea of 'meeting our creator' I thought one of the hieroglyphs was used in AvP 1 the movie. So that would conflict with the AvP movie. As of writing this post I cant seem to remember 100% about the hieroglyphs though.

Xenomorphs were not created in the end of this movie. I can say that due to the panel seen by the Prometheus crew, where an xenomorph drone and a xenomorph queen are clearly visible. This movie doesn´t challenge the continuity, as the xenomorphs already existed before. Some clarification is needed, yet, to the xenomorph emerged from the dead alien, but it can be worked IMO.

alien resurrection was gash but it had some good ideas, its the first of the movies which display the xenos heightened intelligence and capability, showing they were not a hive mind creature.

Snorkelbottom May I ask to you a question ? AT THIS STAGE : 1 Have you found anything in or on the 3d blu ray that conclusively proves that avp and alien IS NOT in the same universe ? Does the signal Weyland discovered as was shown in the extras in any way prove that Yutani did not receive a predator shoulder mounted laser gun ? Would Yutani not have had a technological advantage over Weyland in technological development (because of reverse engineering the predator gun) and be ahead in space travel and weapons development meaning they should have discovered that signal beforE Weyland did ? I just wondered what your opinion might be on this .

Looks like we have a " loose cannon " on our hands.

I had watched the movie on Friday the 12th, I watched the movie with Ridley Scotts commentary. Ridley said during the movie that While working on the film he realized that he messed up with the location in which Prometheus took place. We know that Prometheus takes place on LV 223. Instead the movie was suppose to take place on LV 426 the moon. I believe he mentioned he did not change it because it was already set in stone(with budget im assuming). So Ridley Scott went from LV 426 being a moon, to then a planet, to then being called LV 223. Well considering if I have done the math correctly it seems to me that after making the movie ALIEN 33 years ago, Ridley would forget some things about when he made the film.

If you guys want, I can go back to double check that.

For those saying "thats canon for me" and the like - stop fooling yourself lol! you do not get to choose what is canon. You can say you like it or dislike it or love it or loathe it...just don't call your opinion a fact.

@Mr Tanker Lol I agree, a pred would own an engineer. Funny thing is, I'm 99% sure that the same actor played the main engineer and the predator =)