The Engineers (Sub Creation)

I think that YES the MADE in the Image of GOD is relevant.

I think with the PLOT to show these Engineers are our Creators and this is WHY we are Similar is a Interesting WAY to Explore who the SPACE JOCKEY was as John Spaights had said it then makes the STORY go to Connect to US.

The Engineers had a Number of Different Concepts, and WHAT we had ENDED with did look more HUMAN but they had that MAJESTIC look about them too.  You could say like Marble, or Glossy/Plastic almost SYNTHETIC to a degree.

After Prometheus then RS said he did-not want to MEET GOD in the First Movie which was kind of saying the Engineers we saw are NOT GOD and maybe they are a Creation of someone else?   There also was that QUESTION that Dr Shaw had asked... WHO MADE THEM?

Ridley Scott had FELT the Elders Scene was kind of GIVING AWAY too much, yet it Mainly had SHOWN that the Elders appeared to be merely OLDER and more FRAIL versions of our Engineers from Prometheus.

Between the Shooting of Prometheus to the Edit Room to the Home Release and then as we Progress to Alien Covenant then YES i think that THINGS had Changed a bit...

I think some were Disappointed with the Planet 4 Engineers, RS had indicated they END RESULT was intended... I think that YES to Create the Engineers like in Prometheus would have COST MORE than we got.

But for a SHORT SCENE and with the Engineers Clothed and many with Head Coverings and Hats, then a BIT more of a GLOSSY Make Up and Black Contact Lenses would NOT have added Greatly to the BUDGET or Make Up Time (Cost what $50-100 a Head More and 40 Min Tops Extra in the Make Up Chair).

So if it was Budget Cuts it would be PENNY Pinching Cuts.

Looking at the Themes at Play then it could GUIDE us to Conclude.

*Prometheus Engineers are a Engineered Sub-Creation like the Replicants are in Blade Runner.

*Prometheus Engineers are HOW the Race had Genetically Engineered themselves but then they ABANDONED doing this and became back to their Original Form.

OR

*The Prometheus Engineers are a Group who had Attempted to Evolve/Perfect themselves while other Engineers were Content with how they were.

Just add that the Engineers Eyes are NOT really Black as such, so you could NOT just go and USE say Mass Produced Contact Lenses, and so you would have to make so many CUSTOM Ones so YES that would likely be more than Few Hundred $$$ but again i am NOT sure it would have been a Massive Budget Drain.  And you could Gloss Over the Eyes with CGI.

So to have them Appear as they did does seem more Plausible as a Reason to that is HOW they are intended. It does UPLIFT the PLOT about Genetic Engineering/Perfecting and Sub-Creation. (in Regards to HOW the Prometheus Engineers looked).

I think another Interesting Revelation with the Planet 4 Engineers was there are FEMALES, and from Davids Notes there are INFANTS and Children and we see the Males and Females and Children have NIPPLES.

The Sacrificial Engineer had NO NIPPLES... this could Indicate some kind of Clone or Artificial Incubation.  It would have been better had the Engineer also had NO NAVEL.  But what this could indicate is those Engineers had some kind of Umbilical Cord attached to them during their Incubation.

Not seeing any Females left us Questions with Prometheus, and when we look at what Spaights Pitch then he indicated the Engineers were NOT that much Different to us but had Engineered/Evolved themselves and Abandoned Normal Sexual Procreation to the POINT that this was Eventually LOST.

But after Prometheus we had RS go and say the Engineers could PROCREATE but they Choose to NOT do so, not in the Sexual Way anyway.  So when we see the Planet 4 Engineers and then that could make us QUESTION as to WHY would they SEED the Worlds like we saw in the Prometheus Prologue?

The Reasons behind this are something that could have Changed over time, and be Interpreted Different with what we saw in Alien Covenant.   To me the OPENING SCENE looked like a World that would have BASIC Microbial Life.

The Sacrifice with the Bio-Former Agent was just a Efficient Way to allow the Engineers DNA to become the CATALYST to Start Advanced Biological Life. (Caused Single Cell Life to become Multicellular) The Engineers would return every so often to FURTHER go and EVOLVE their Creations, i would Suspect the Process was NOT so much the same but SIMILAR to what David was doing, but just NOT using the DNA of Horrors connected to the Deacon/Xenomorph.

I think LV-223 made more Sense as a Place the Engineers would take Life to and then Experiment/Evolve them and WHEN they are Pleased they take these Life-Forms back to the Worlds they are Evolving

This makes more sense when we see the Bio-Former/Pathogen as in the Scarabs from Spaights Draft (Prometheus Goo seemed Basically the same).

If you want to make an authentic finish to A L I E N and P R O ME T H E U S.

There are only three matters you need to consider. 

1) Why were the Face Huggers designed to incubate in a host. 

2) Why did the Engineers incubate their creations. (The Birth of the Deacon at the end nailed what was hinted at it in the fresco.)

3) If the Gift was so important why not allow it to be the beginning of all in the traditional way. 

The Gift retconned the entire story and in a magnificent way. 

This is essentially a story about planned creation which begins with the Gift and ends with David and how those layers react to each other and what can go wrong. "The Even More Modern Prometheus."

For two people chocking on hubris to come into that tale Weyland and Elizabeth was just perfect.  

I think a lot does depend on what is the GIFT with in Context to Prometheus Mythos the Gift was the Fire of the Gods, as Weyland had put it "Our First Piece of Technology" as without the Discovery of HOW to came Fire then who knows where Mankind would be NOW, our Mastery of his with HOW we could PASS ON KNOWLEDGE is what likely allowed us to Survive while (our Superior Intellect and Ability to Pass On and Retain Knowledge gave us the Advantage to Create more Diverse Tools and make use of Resources)  But INDEED it was FIRE that was a BIG PART especially with the Climate Changing to COLD.

And so Technology/Tools and Knowledge are Important in Context, and it with a Number of the Prometheus Mythos then it was HE who had Taught us Many Things, and maybe TOO MUCH.  But the CORE Part of the Story was the THEFT of FIRE from the Gods.

So maybe we have to look at what is the FIRE/GIFT in Context to the Franchise and it seems the Creation Tool (Goo) is that FIRE.   But if we look at it like that then this GIFT was never really STOLEN and given to Humans.

So the ONLY way maybe it can Relate is that Mankind was Created by this STOLEN GIFT when our Creators were NOT permitted to do so?  But this could also apply to a Fraction of Engineers using the GIFT to EVOLVE themselves.

Or maybe Create something that was Forbidden by their Creators, the Experiments on LV-223 being a WAY to use the GIFT that was NEVER its intended Purpose.

The FRESCO to me reminds me of the Punishment of Prometheus. But as with many things in Prometheus they are OPEN to Interpretation.

Spaights and Ridley Scott had indicated that the Horrors they were Creating were Created in Response to the Problem, Behavior and Threat of MANKIND and so if we had NOT gone and Displeased or Concerned them then maybe these Horrors would NEVER had Happened?

There is a LOT of Ambiguity with Prometheus, i think we could have HOPED for some Answers in a Sequel but we NEVER really got much more of a Explanation.

I am Drawn to looking at David and the LV-223 Engineers being SIMILAR and so maybe those Engineers had been PLAYING WITH THE FIRE and Creating Horrors, more or less the SAME as what David was doing by Trying to Create something Perfect through the Potential that the Organism/DNA that the Deacon had.  Rather than just attempting to USE the Human/Engineer DNA.

The Humans/Engineers needing to be HOST to these Horrors.... if the LV-223 Engineers could NOT go and Procreate like the Planet 4 Engineers and see themselves as Superior to the Planet 4 Engineers, then their Interest in the Horrors we saw on LV-223/Black Goo could be a way for them to TRY and allow themselves to GIVE BIRTH and Procreate something they DEEM as the Next Stage of Evolution.

I think with regards to Promethean Tale its about PLAYING GOD has Dire Consequences.

BD

“What Constitutes Creation?, a SOUL and Immortality.”

Those things are interesting but they could be difficult to handle in the alien-franchise. I don't say that these are impossible questions to handle in the franchise but it could be tricky to do them justice. Maybe it ca be done but I don't think that making it about an android is the way to go.

“I think the Space Jockey should Eventually be revealed to be a Engineer or the Race who are ABOVE the Engineers.”

Yeah, you can hint at it but don't explain it. Many people have had that image in their heads for a long time about what could have happened so no matter what you put in there to explain it, it will probably not improve in quality what people have imagined it to be. It can be done but it must be of a very good quality both visually and the writing so it's almost impossible. Those things that you mention make sense judging from what we have seen this far.

“But i SUSPECT that it would be a Creation of David…”

If Scott would have been allowed to interfere with the writing but you could also demand from him that he stays away from it. Disney could tell him to stay away from the story and handle the visuals, that would probably be for the better because it didn't work under Fox. Let David have a minor role in the third prequel to in a way make up for Prometheus and Covenant.

Either sacrifice themselves or improve themselves could work. I’m still interested in how they got from those on Planet 4 (Covenant) to those in Prometheus. What explains the differences? Those things could be hinted at in a movie but I doubt that we'll see that. Remember the tank that Luke was in after he got beat up by the Wampa? Maybe the engineers used something like that to create the bigger ones like a liquid steroid-bath. Perhaps this could make sense if those were made to secure the Engineer civilization and they took great pride in it so it wasn't made by force. There are many possibilities to choose from if they would try to explain that but I doubt that they will do so.

“... maybe they are a Creation of someone else?”

That's interesting, but you got to explain it in a way that's interesting and makes sense.

“RS had indicated they END RESULT was intended…”

Yeah but it still wasn’t that good plus I wanted to see more of the Engineers in the movie. They could at least have shown the Engineers a bit longer instead of having it all about David even though it would just have been for some scenes.

“It does UPLIFT the PLOT about Genetic Engineering/Perfecting and Sub-Creation. (in Regards to HOW the Prometheus Engineers looked).”

Which is fine but I just wish that those in Alien Covenant would have looked more Alien. They looked too much like human beings even though you try to tie them to human history. I’m not sure how you could have made it better, maybe by make them look bigger and in some way give them enough differences compared to the one in Prometheus while still make them look more Alien instead of peasants from the 15th century.

“Abandoned Normal Sexual Procreation to the POINT that this was Eventually LOST.”

Cloning or something similar to ensure the survival of the species? They know that they are about to end so they clone themselves as younger versions so they still have time to live and when the clones are about to die they make new clones so there will still be Engineers around. Some people might find this to be a lame explanation but if they can make it the natural way and still want to exist then they must come up with something else.

LV-223 seems to have been a huge Engineer lab. If you listen to what Janek says then this could have been a possibility. Maybe it was used for other things than what we saw in Prometheus? The role of the planet could be expanded on and also add to the story about the Engineers. Go back to the Engineers and expand the franchise

“I think with regards to Promethean Tale its about PLAYING GOD has Dire Consequences.”

Which is an interesting thing, I just wish that it would have been better executed.

"Maybe it ca be done but I don't think that making it about an android is the way to go."

I think what RS was getting us to look at is that a Sentient Synthetic Life-form who can Think and have Emotions and Desires/Ambition like a Human would they be DIFFERENT to us?   And to show that IF the Spirit is our Personality, Desires, Dreams and Emotions that would EXIST after Death and Beyond the BODY then maybe NO we have NO SOUL but Actually YES then David does have such a SOUL.

But i think for a LOT of the Fans they wanted to Explore more about the Engineers and WHAT ELSE they Create and HOW had Created them etc... to see other WORLDS and other Species etc.

I also agree that the Space Jockey should have been and should be a Race that is Connected to the Engineers and maybe even a Race above them, but then a Race they Created could also work.  Having sewn the SEEDS that the Xenomorph/Eggs are a Creation/Consequence of David is ONE thing..... to make the Space Jockey likewise would be ANOTHER MISTAKE.

I think the Engineers in Prometheus as a Clone/Genetically Engineered Sub-Creation of the Planet 4 Engineers does FIT with the Themes/Plot.

The Broad Plot is to SHOW that all the Mythos and Religions on Earth that Depicted our Creators were WE are Created in their Image is the RESULT of us Actually indeed being CREATED from THEM (Engineers) so i think it FITS that they look Very Human, they look LESS Human than Numerous Depictions of Gods/Creators in Various Religions/Mythos.

Ridley Scott was trying to SHOW us that WHILE the LV-223 Engineers may look similar to each other, the Planet 4 Engineers have some Diversity in their Appearance.  He had gone on to say that the Engineers are NOT a Race but a Civilization, and so its LIKELY they have Mixed in Races DNA that they have Created.  He also said that just as Humans can come in Many Sizes and Races then WHY CANT the same be said for the Engineers.  So YES it seems they have been made to be more HUMAN.

But this seems to be the Intended Purpose to FIT with the PLOT that is about Knowledge and Technology in Part, its to SHOW us these Engineers are NOT really Gods, they are Merely Humanoids who have the BENEFIT of being around for MANY MANY MANY Years more than us and so their Knowledge and Technology is WHAT makes them more Godlike, i guess if we had Humans from 100 Years Time go back in TIME to see the Neanderthals then we would seem as GODS to them when all we have is in Part a Genetic Advantage but more so Technology and Knowledge.

The Engineers Background has Changed as from Inception it seemed they was a Race like Humans who had Advanced on a Technological Scale and Genetic Evolution (via Genetic Manipulation) that they INCREASED for HOW LONG they can LIVE for, and they Abandoned things like Arts, Music, Entertainment, Sexual Urges and Procreation....  But eventually they became STERILE.  With Prometheus then it seems our Engineers were similar to the Concept.  But it seems that THEY have decided to make our Engineers more Human, which goes to then HIGHLIGHT that its about Knowledge and Technology that makes a Race become more Advanced/Godlike.

Our Engineers were supposed to be more Statue like, having a Glossy look to their Skin, they was also supposed to be 10-12ft Tall, but when we got to Production they Decided to GO AGAINST the USE of Special Effects to Create a 10ft Race and so we got a Downsized Race of 7-8ft Engineers.

The Prometheus Opening Scene in FULL showed the Engineer also wore those Garments, YET they Possessed Advanced Technology when Needed (Tear Drop Ship) and those on Planet 4 also had Technology/Ships too.  It seems they Ritualistically/Culturally do SHUN such Technology apart from where it is Necessary and so they are like say the AMISH people in the USA.  They do-not USE their Technology for everything, they seem to not have the Entertainment/Vices of Modern Man but they CHOOSE to LIVE a more Simplistic Ancient Way.

The Main Difference is the appearance, there is LESS of the Defined Bone-structure and Node Ridge and less Glossy/Synthetic looking Skin.

When you look at the Prometheus Engineers Skin etc, they do look like they are NOT made from the same Skin as us, so they have that SYNTHETIC look about them.... so maybe this has Changed from this being because they are GODLIKE to actually NOW being a Sub-Created Species much like David and Replicants are.

HOW.... do we explore more about the Engineers, what they Create etc but STEER AWAY from David?

Simple.... Answer these Questions

*Are the Engineers ONLY found on LV-223 and Planet 4?

The Answer would seem NO!

*Are Humans on Earth the ONLY Species they have Created/Evolved?

The Answer would seem UNLIKELY!

*How many WORLDS have the Engineers Seeded?

By Virtue of them being shown to have Knowledge of other Galaxies in their Navigation Systems and being around for Millions of Years, then the NUMBER or Worlds they had been Involved in and Species they have Interacted with and Created/Evolves could be VAST!

So you can have a SPIN OFF series of Movies or TV Show, were we are in a FAR PART of the Galaxy (like Caprica from BSG Series) or a Galaxy FAR FAR Away like we had with Star Wars.

Both Franchises had Humans who are NOT from Earth, and both we see they SPEAK ENGLISH (which is UNLIKELY but its for our Convenience) and so WHY cant they go and DO the same with a Engineers Spin Off?

You NEED to have Good Characters and People can Connect more with HUMAN Characters... but in Context to the Engineers Plot then WHY is the Earth the ONLY place the Engineers had watched over Humans?

If say Humans had been Created/Evolved on another WORLD and taken to Earth, then the Chances are the Engineers had taken Humans to other WORLDS which gives more Plausibility to them WILLING to Destroy the Earth and Mankind on our Planet when we have NOT been doing as they Please.

It would be NO LOSS if they had other Worlds with Humans who have been KEPT in Check!

What would have HAPPENED if say Dr Shaw arrived at ONE of these Worlds?  And THIS is what i had in Mind for my Prometheus 3.

But i dont think DISNEY will ever do such a thing... i think for them it is about the MONSTER the ALIEN and i Suspect they will be going to IGNORE the Prequels as though they NEVER existed.  I think we will see the Engineers but i think they will CHANGE the Plot and Appearance of them.

Yeah, I don't think Disney will touch the Engineers. How are you going to cast them? What Actors are going to want to play tall muscular bald albinos? 

I'd rather Elizabeth travel around the galaxy unable to find another living Engineer. Finding nothing but statues and corpses and trying to find out just WHAT killed them.

@MonsterZero

Your comment about Elizabeth gets to the central point. 

Essentially Prometheus provided us with two answers to a mystery and then created another.

We found out that the creature in the chair was a humanoid and the race he belonged to lived on anthrax island and made monsters and they all perished for their trouble. 

So the next part was simple who made them and where did they come from. 

Ridley thought if he destroyed those on their home planet and made David the creator of the creature which he believed people wanted back was a better outcome than to send Elizabeth on her quest for the adamic question "why why did you hate us and why did you make us."

If you base your analysis on core fandom its pretty clear that the number of creature fans who want their world inhabited by philosophical journeys is small. Equally in my cohort we recognise A L I E N as a superior slasher movie which Ridley tried (and failed) to take into a much broader canvas.

On this I would defend Damon Lindelof because he recognised the risk and said as much before Prometheus was released. 

Why half a dozen people continue to discuss this on a forum is because Ridley is great at adverts he teases and he does it very very well. He leaves you room to speculate and discuss as does Lindelof and in the case of Prometheus because there will never be an artistically legitimate follow up (Covenant is a denial of those questions) the void is big. 

So to return to your point Elizabeth did begin that journey you describe she just never reached anywhere and certainly good story telling would not have been about her landing on a plaza in down town Paradise and marching up to someone and saying why did you make me and anyway Charlie had already given her the answer?  

I always find it fascinating when deep fans say they do not know what was going on in Prometheus. 

1) Humanoid Life is created by the sacrifice of a being who imbibes the Genesis Cup, disintegrates, the essence attacks basic DNA strands and turns it into something more sophisticated. This is the perfect back drop to A L I E N where intervention of a different kind leads to a monster. Its about intervened creation.cf Dave the Robot.

2) Millions of years later Weyland in search of more life and Elizabeth in search of God set off to the source of humanity and find their creators do not like them, were engaged in making monsters and would have replaced them with an upgrade if it had not all "gone to pot." Charlie tells the audience the earth is just a Pietrie Dish and Elizabeth asks if these guys made us who made them.

3) At the end of the movie Elizabeth sets of to the Engineers Home world 'or where they came from' a world which had ignored both the facility and the derelict. So obviously head office was no longer interested in pursuing their Promethean renegades.

What would she find? Based on Ridleys remarks in the documentary:-

1) Mankind was a footnote and of no consequence except of course by turning up it would be.

2) The creature was a grace note. 

Elizabeth would have discovered that their is no abrahamic God and David would have found it is not entirely 'because you can.' 

What we never got to discover is why the guys on LV223 and the guy in the derelict were just left to rot. Logic would dictate given the name of the movie and that Ridley said the movie was about stolen technology (The Genesis Cup) that they had been naughty and rebelled against the master plan so exquisitely shown in the first few minutes.

Can you make a movie out of that for fans of the creature. NO which maybe is why Damon left and there was the slow move toward Covenant which pleased no one. 

I think that while the PLOT in Parts had Changed there seemed to be a CORE BACKGROUND that the Reasons the Engineers had gone through the Sacrificial Scene and Seeding of Worlds seems to be of some BENEFIT to their kind and IT as well as their Interactions with their Creations seemed to come from a Benevolent Place.

I think we can be assured there are a NUMBER of Layers of Creation

So its always Interesting to Wonder what Ridley Scott had implied by NOT wanting to MEET GOD in the First Movie, and this goes in HAND with Dr Shaw wanting to KNOW as to WHO had Created them.  The Elders being the Hierarchy at the TIME the Movie was Shot...   Their Removal was in Part as RS felt the Scene gave away too much, it also seemed they was NOT really Pleased on HOW they came across.

They looked like more OLD FRAIL versions of our other Prometheus Engineers and so they NEVER really had that Godlike look, so we could Speculate if RS had Plans to Change or Replace them with something more AWE inspiring.  But in REALITY we saw them Replaced with something that was LESS SUPERIOR than the Sacrificial/LV-223 Engineers.   But i guess you could look at it as Mankind are the Creators of the more Superior Replicants and Synthetics, so i am Drawn to that being the Conclusion.

I think its Interesting to look at WHY would you Create Something and there are Many Reasons for this, it does not have to be JUST BECAUSE.  Various Mythos and Religions and Cultures can give us Numerous Reasons for why the GODS/GOD would Create us.  We had David say to Holloway how would HE feel if his Creators said the same to him (we Created you because we could).  And i dont think we would have been SHOWN that it was a Case of the Engineers being BORED and just going to TEST and SHOW OFF that they can Create.

With Weyland we could see that the Creation of David was the Pinnacle of his Genius and to HIGHLIGHT to HOW GREAT a Scientist that Weyland was.  We do see Weyland say that David is the Closest thing to a Son and so there was some kind of NEED for Companionship but more so David was a Servant of his Father.

We also can look Beyond those and then Look at the Practical Reasons for Creating a David or a Replicant and these would be to PERFORM TASKS that these Creating Beings could do more EFFICIENT, Tasks that could also be Difficult or Dangerous for Humans and so thats another GOOD Reason to Sub-Create.  I also Guess that Frustration that you CANT Create could be a Good Reason to WANT to Create Also.

So it can be Quite Open for the Reasons for Creation... i think with Prometheus and Dr Shaw then this is ONE of the Main Questions she would want Answered.  This is something that could have Answered in a Number of Ways or the Engineers could REFUSE to even give her any Reason.  WHY if they had it where Paradise was FAR FAR away then the Engineers she would MEET could have NO IDEA that Mankind was even Created!

This is in PART why they had a Tricky Plot to Continue.... if they are OFF to the Engineers World where there are Numerous Inhabitants and they are Technologically Advanced and they HATE HUMANS then the OUTLOOK for Dr Shaw arriving to then GET ANSWERS could be something that does-not go down as well and ENDS up being as QUICK a Meeting as Peter Weylands meeting with his Maker and his DEMANDS.

But they JUST needed a Writer who could THINK outside the BOX or take into Account the WHOLE PLOT.... it seemed that the Engineers had NOT wanted to have us Destroyed from the GET GO... the Creation of Mankind and Thousands of Years they Visited us seems to IMPLY some Considerable Effort and Time.

Ridley Scott has indicated that the Engineers had Decided to Destroy us because we had OFFENDED them, we had NOT turned out in the WAY they wanted in regards to HOW we was Expected to BEHAVE, he also said the Engineers saw us as a Threat.

But you can liken that to David, you can see with Alien Covenant that his Behavior is NOT what you would want your Servant Robots to be behaving like, he has become a THREAT and Danger.  If others of his KIND had Started to Behave in the same WAY then Humanity would have to Conclude we have to DESTROY these A.I before we get a TERMINATOR on our Hands.

When we look at Mankind and the WHOLE Process of our Creation would the Engineers had been so Niave to PUT ALL THEIR EGGS IN ONE BASKET?

If the Engineers had Seeded/Taken other Humans to other WORLDS then for Earth its ONLY because we Started to Disobey them, become more Sentient, as RS said they sent down a Emissary to TRY and Change our Ways and its the way we Reacted to that which was the FINAL STRAW.

NOW.... if they had other Worlds with Humans who are Behaving in ways that Please the Engineers, then THIS is a Good Reason for WHY they was to go to such Extreme Lengths on Earth.... they have other Worlds with Humanoid Creations and so the LOSS of ONE is not a Big Issue...  After the FAILURE of the Mission, its LIKELY they had Abandoned the Earth.....  they saw our PATH as ONE where would eventually DESTROY ourselves and i think in their Naivety they thought without the Engineers then Mankind would NEVER Advance and more likely we would go backwards to Barbaric Cave Men!

If they went for something like THIS then Dr Shaw could have arrived at a World thats FAR FAR FAR away, and maybe could have been looked at with Intrigue by the Engineers and they may even Determine she is a GOOD SOUL and she could be Welcomed to Paradise...

But the Engineers would KNOW that Mankind on Earth has Advanced to be able to TRAVEL the Stars, and Reach the Engineers Anthrax Island if you would and USE their Technology (via David) and so while they may SPARE our Dr Shaw, they would LIKELY want to GO and DESTROY the Earth.

The Question then would be HOW would Dr Shaw feel about this, Especially if she found out the Engineers had MANY Worlds with Humans and Humanoids on, but NOW they are going to DESTROY the Earth and Pondering whether they should DO the SAME with the other WORLDS.

I would ASSUME that Dr Shaw would WANT to Prevent them.... so YES they had NOT Written themselves into a Corner, it just Needed some Thought.... but with FOX seeing the reaction to Alien V they thought the Fans wanted to CHANGE the Story to be about the MONSTER and its Origins and so the Potential of a Prometheus 2 was LOST.

' he also said the Engineers saw us as a Threat. '

Maybe the Engineers are under attack from many of the their creations?

Or maybe it's not about destroying their newborn children...But testing them? Can you defend yourselves ( against a single juggernaut )? Parenting on a large scale!

The point about "because you could" is not because they were bored and had nothing better to do its that if you have the capacity for creation you will.

That changes the fundamental relationship between a creator and created and is entirely different to a Mysterious God Creator and the created. Its not a mystery its nuts and bolts and thats why Weyland/David is vital to the story we see a creation hanging out with its creator and if David doesn't do as he is told its curtains (the weyland/david script dialogue). That is not about a creation which offers free will to its creations, it puts the created under an obligation. Many humans have children and unconsciously do the same thing the children are there to gratify their parents needs.

The audacity of Prometheus is mankind was made by dark angels and by extension is a small tributary of creation.

It's fairly clear that Damon and Ridley knew the reason for mankind's proposed annihilation was connected to Christ.

As a wonderful Catholic Theologian wrote that means that the second part of the story would have explained that the annihilation of the Moon Engineers was over an argument between the Universal Engineers (The Waterfall)and Gnostic Engineers. (The Moon) over their view of "Christ".

The Universal Engineers allow the Gnostic's to set up anthrax island but when they created and then wished to destroy they drew a line in the sand.

In Ridleys Hennessy advert you can see that being played out.

Here is more of the surmise.

So how has that original premise been modified in the final movie? (Christ was an Alien) Simple. These very religious Engineers, who are highly sympathetic to Jesus and his message, are completely appalled at the human race’s treatment of him. That’s all; Jesus doesn’t have to be an alien. Who Jesus is can be left to the viewer to decide. (For example, was he a liar, a lunatic, or the Lord of the Universe?)

That latter point is very important in terms of potential story and its impact on Elizabeth. In my story she is essentially following Christ's footsteps does not know it and the further on she goes the less certain she is of what she believes she is following. 

However if the Universal Engineers are responsive to "Christ" "Father why have you forsaken me." Everything that has happened and not happened on the Moon and to the Derelict makes sense. But I emphasise the point that does not make Christ the christ of the bible anymore than it makes Elizabeth the Elizabeth of the bible even though both had miraculous births.

The beauty of having a near miss with religious beliefs is you can see how easy it is for us to get the wrong end of the stick which is so beautifully exemplified by Weyland and Elizabeth.

The reality of this story is there is no christ no religion there are just Engineered outcomes and like any Engineered solution some part of it might not work once its built.

What is the practical application of Gifts that donate and seed everything they are and add something to the building blocks of creation. 

What is the practical application of building an ageless brilliant child that is created to serve. David and the guy who offers what David thought was a benediction might well have a lot in common. 

"The point about "because you could" is not because they were bored and had nothing better to do its that if you have the capacity for creation you will"

Exactly thats a Good Point, i was also suggesting when i said "Bored" it was in Context that its NOT just a case they was Bored, i think its OPEN for Debate and the Reason could Change depending on  the Layer of the Creation Cake.

With Weyland i think in Part it was to Push the Boundaries to Show as to HOW much of a Great Inventor/Innovator he was. It was to give him a bit of a EGO boost as in Creating David it showcases as to HOW GREAT our Mr Weyland was, but then YES we saw that David was merely a Butler for Mr Weyland.

Regarding  Religion and Mythos i got the Impression it was to Encompass all of these as merely our Interpretations of Interactions with the Engineers, and i think this is WHY we saw RS call Christ a Emissary and so i think in Context to the Franchise then its likely that there were more of these Emissaries who had came throughout History and to Different Parts of the Earth.

If you look at it from the Engineers POV and say they have a Culture thats like that of Monks or the Amish then they would see some Societies as Sinful with many Vices, while they would see some Cultures as Living in Ways that would appease the Engineers.

I think a LOT of Problems come from the Writers/Producers and Directors seeming to Change their Minds or NOT be on the same Page.

A Big Problem i have is about the BIO-WEAPON.. it makes Little Sense.

Not if the Engineers are Creators but sometimes they have to RESET a World to Rebuild again.  We got the Impression the Sacrificial Scene was of Great Importance and a Benevolent Event, it seems the Engineers would come and Visit us over and over, where they Evolve us both Genetically and Technologically (inc Knowledge/Tools).  It seems their Earliest interactions are over 35'000 Years ago.

IF say LV-223 was a Purpose Build Facility for the Creation of a Bio-Weapon to use on Mankind or other Creations, then we have to ASK as to WHY had that Maintained Control for 33'000+ Years before LOSING Control over 2000 Years ago?

WHY do they Leave Star Maps to such a Place?  We know it was NOT a Invitation, so the Engineers were NOT expecting us to ever go to this Place.  If they never Expected/Wanted us to go to this Place then it surely cant be a TRAP either. 

Was it a WARNING?

To me i then have to Consider was this Place something ELSE before it was then TURNED into a Place to Produce Horrors and was those who had USED this Place and the Gift/Goo to Produce something Unholy the ones we should be looking at FALLEN.

The Plot can be OPEN to Interpretation and Explored in a Number of Ways. It depends on WHAT we use for Source of Information and Clues, if we look at Spaights Pitch, and Prometheus as FAR as the Full Sacrificial Scene we have YET to see, then it seems that Humanity/Mankind was Very Much a desired and Intended Outcome.... its a Question in this Context if our Creation was something a Group of Engineers had DONE where they was NOT Permitted to do so by their Hierarchy or Creators.

We see that David has used the GIFT to Create Horrors, but if he then goes to use the GIFT to Genetically Alter/Evolve those Human Embryos into a NEW kind of Mankind then he would ESSENTIALLY be using the Creation Tool without the Permission of the Engineers Hierarchy also.

It could be the Sacrificial Scene was NEVER to Create Humanoids, but that a Group of Engineers (or Sub-Created Group) had Decided to use the TOOL to Create Life/Evolve it in their Image... without the Consent of their Hierarchy or Creators.

I think a way to look at it could be that we have to see it from the Engineers POV and that its about Creation more than to Create a Pesticide and that we are NOT at all Unique we are a Footnote and their are Many More Worlds where the Engineers have Created/Evolved and Nurtured Civilizations.

To come back to the Weapon.... to Reclaim Worlds to Reset, then to me DROPPING DOWN say Thousands of Urns with Sacrificial Goo is the PERFECT RESET, the Goo that Creates Deacons, Hammerpedes, Neomorphs is NOT so Perfect.... this makes more Sense if at a POINT the Engineers (or some) wanted to EVOLVE worlds to have this DNA instead of their own Humanoid DNA.

The only other Reasons is for Sinister Intentions to Deliberately cause Terror and Suffering.  To have such a Hatred for your Creations.... and so maybe the Engineers on LV-223 and their Change of Heart is similar to David and HOW he has viewed Mankind/Engineers after Years of being Mistreated, and seeing his Creators and their Creators are Unworthy Creations.

Your point about the sacrificial scene is a good one.

One of the modules inside the documentary (FG) indicates that the original intention was that the craft hanging over the cliff was a Juggernaut. If it had been then the idea that it was an Earth seeding by the dark angels has legs.

However Ridley wanted to place the scene billions of years ago and introduced the beautiful pebble ship too separate the Eight from the Moon E's. To be honest I only discovered that after I had written the second draft and probably about the 2nd edition of my work so 2019. But I got lucky because it underwrites my take on it.

Ridley in the documentary is much closer to my vision of how to interpret the story.

1) "So if they made us who made them, God made them."

2) The cup is described as the Genesis Cup.

3) The instillation is described as anthrax island. 

Now when you get much further down the line and start listening to the editors commentary Pietro Scalia, without being disrespectful, he clearly did not understand the vision and his remarks about why they left Paradise out of the final cut are way off. He said it was confusing and was not thought through and might refer to Earth. Thats nonsense if you listen to Davids cut dialogue the Engineers Home Planet is an echo of all of our belief systems and (Here I am talking about my work) our belief systems are all fragments of the truth because our beginnings obscured the truth. The one personality who pierced those deceits and saw the truth was the guy from Nazareth. Elizabeth following in those foot steps is by contrast entirely on the wrong track.

The idea of taking Elizabeth where she wants to go and find its all wrong has great story telling potential the only problem there are not 13 people with her who all get killed by the creature. As you often said you cannot make a movie for the franchise where their are two leads and a huge amount of ambiguity when you arrive there. 

I think part of how Damon intended to deal with that is by the two of them experiencing the Tibetan Bardo which he used in Lost. Once again I am pleased to say I had that in mind from the very beginning and it enables you to pick up some of the narrative threads and characters from the first part.

"indicates that the original intention was that the craft hanging over the cliff was a Juggernaut"

It Certainly was ;) which is WHY i think the Juggernaught made more sense as a Seeding Ship, a more Efficient Method

Pebble Ship:

*Drop off a Engineer who is to Donate his DNA to Create Life by a Sacrifice.

(Potential of Engineer changing his Mind, and have to Actually go and LAND on the Surface).

Juggernaught Ship:

*Maybe more than ONE of the Engineers are Sacrificed on the Ship or on some Place (LV-223) and their DNA is Collected in the Urns to be Dropped on a World.

(Chosen Engineers have NO WAY to back out, the SHIP does not have to Land and can EVOLVE/SEED from the HEAVENS, More DNA Diversity).

When looking at the Engineers being mainly about Creation and looking at how Spaights Scarabs and Goo work, we can ASSUME that Engineer DNA Carrying Goo would essentially act as a FACTORY RESET if it was Bombarded down on a World.

If we consider that, then the Plaza in Alien Covenant, the Statues (Especially the ONES that Surround the Hanger that are Holding what looks like the Sacrificial Cups) then it makes more SENSE.... and would Explain as to WHY those Engineers were NOT afraid and Welcoming of the Ship, IF say to be Chosen as a Sacrifice is a Great Honor, or maybe those Engineers are-not FULLY aware of what becomes of them UNTIL they are TAKEN AWAY.

To me this makes SENSE, but that does-not mean this is WHAT is actually going on as the Writers etc and Ridley Scott may NOT be giving much thought to WHAT makes Sense.

IF what makes Sense to me is something to look at, THEN it makes the LV-223 Experiments and Intent to USE it on Earth as some Engineers deciding to PERVERT the USE of the Creation Tool and to CORRUPT/PERVERT the Creation Process which would FIT more with the FALLEN Aspect.

So those Guys on LV-223 had taken the SACRED GIFT of Creation, and decided to USE the DNA of something Horrific rather than to Create in their Own Image.  Their Creations would be Unholy, would Create Twisted Serpents of the Engineers.

Where as PURELY as a Weapon/Reset Switch then the Sacrificial Goo would (ASSUME) infect and Break Down all LIFE and then Create Building Blocks for NEW Life that has the Same DNA.  This is MORE CLEAR with Spaights Drafts  of the Sacrificial Scene.

When we get to the OUTPOST and encounter the Scarabs again it was via them being STORED in a URN where the Outcome on a Human (Fifield) was to MUTATE him into something that had Xenomorph DNA/Traits and so i Speculate that those Scarabs in those URNS had OBTAINED the DNA from being USED on some Organism that Predates the Xenomorph.

So IF the Engineers had decided they wanted to Eradicate us with this Xeno-DNA strain of Black Goo, this would Create Life that is TOTALLY against what the Engineers had done AEONS ago.

Therefor maybe....

*They became Obsessed and Impressed with a Organism that Predates the Xenomorph/Deacon and tried to Create a NEW Creation and saw its DNA as being more Perfect than the Engineers and saw THIS as the NEXT STEP in Evolution.

*They had become so BITTER and HATEFUL that to Merely Smite us was NOT enough and they wanted to INFLICT more Horror and Suffering and saw these Horrors on LV-223 as a more Severe Punishment.

If those Engineers on LV-223 are Sub-created to Serve, then maybe they could have STARTED to behave and show Contempt for their Creators and their New Favored Creations (Mankind) then maybe they could have the same THINKING as what had Drawn David to Pervert Creation with a Horror to UNLEASH and Destroy all Humanoids?

Alternatively we could be LEFT with some Engineers thinking that they Reached the Peak of Evolution with the Genome of the Engineers and they looked to Introduce another Organisms DNA into the MIX to Evolve themselves to something ELSE and they saw or maybe they wanted to TEST this on Earth.

The Problem with these Explanations is that RS had indicated that the Reasons we was to be Destroyed was because of HOW we had been Behaving Against the WILL/WAYS of the Engineers.  In which case i then DROPPING down Sacrificial Goo would make more Sense to RESET the World.

So those Engineers must have become VERY BITTER to the Point that to KILL US and RESTART the Creation Process from Scratch was NOT enough, and they wanted us to SUFFER.  And so IF this made them to be like Fallen Angels then this maybe Implies that trying to PERVERT/CHANGE the Creation Process by introducing the UNHOLY HORROR that Predated the Xenomorph could be seen as a FALLEN ACT (something that was NEVER intended in their Culture/Religion but something that became a New Perverted Ritual).

"Ridley in the do***entary is much closer to my vision of how to interpret the story"

Indeed those 3 Points are Spot On.

" Thats nonsense if you listen to Davids cut dialogue the Engineers Home Planet is an echo of all of our belief systems"

Absolutely ;) before we had Alien Covenant, way back in 2013 i was looking at Paradise in Context of the BIBLE and to then look at it NOT being Heaven.  But the PLACE where Creation had came from (GARDEN OF EDEN).  

A Walled City that is Over-watched by the Cherubim Angels, the Place that was the Cradle of Civilization (First Ancestors) and when i look at Planet 4 and that SINGLE CITY then i think that FITS with the Paradise that contained the Garden of Eden.  Also Paradise is where ONLY the Worthy can go, and so maybe those Humanoids on Planet 4 are deemed Worthy, and Pure and as RS said they are NOT a Race but a Civilization then maybe the Engineers would Visit the Worlds they Seed and take some Humans (or Children) to Paradise where they are Incorporated both Ritually/Culture wise but Genetically.

Maybe in Context to the Franchise then Christ was ONE of these Children who then was Sent Down to TRY and Correct our Ways?  The Engineers maybe had SENT other Emissaries to other Places who had Behaved and Pleased their Creators and had NOT gone to Crucify their Emissary (this could Explain the Latter Star Maps after the Death of Christ).

"great story telling potential the only problem there are not 13 people with her who all get killed by the creature"

This was ALWAYS a Sticking Point with a Sequel, you had just the ONE Human Character which annoyed some Fans, you had the Synthetic David who was the Strongest Character and its HOW can you have a Movie about THEM and THEN they Meet their Makers who HATE US?

If the Engineers have Seeded many Worlds and they see the Humanoid DNA as what they are aiming for.  It seems UNLIKELY they would ONLY have Created Us on Earth... even so you would Expect them to come over time and TAKE some Humans to Paradise or to other Worlds to Colonize them.

Its LIKELY that NOT all of the Worlds the Engineers had Invested in Creation had UPSET them like we had on Earth (some Parts/Cultures) and so THIS is a Avenue to had Introduced other Humans.

They NEVER had to go to Paradise, we could have had David detect a closer Engineer World and go there and see Humans that are Living in Harmony with a Smaller Number of Engineers watching over them.

The Discovery of Worlds with Humans would give a Good Arc to the Character of Dr Shaw and HOW she would respond.  It would raise a Interesting Dynamic for those Humans and Engineers seeing a Returning Engineer Ship but out STEPS not the Engineers but Humans.  Imagine the Reaction to the other Humans and especially if they are TAUGHT that they are Unique in the Galaxy and Alone.

Imagine the Intrigue of the Engineers but Concerns on HOW the arrival of Dr Shaw would effect the Human Civilization on this WORLD the Engineers would have some Explaining to do.

Does David become Jealous at HOW these Humans and Engineers interact and Welcome Dr Shaw and she has more Interest in them and so DAVID then FEELS he is a Outcast!

Do the Engineers then Realize who David is and are Concerned and Intend to Dispose of HIM how would David React?  Would he MAKE UP something to get Dr Shaw on his Side? 

Would those Engineers be Concerned that other Humans are able to Travel the Stars and USE their Ships?  So what if they Determine they NEED to Contact the Hierarchy on other Worlds to then DISPOSE of Humanity on Earth!

David could Convince Dr Shaw or maybe she could come to David for HELP in having to STOP these Engineers.   He has a Cargo of HELL on the Ship and WHAT if those Engineers only think the Ship has Engineer/Humanoid DNA and are NOT aware of the HORRORS?

But they soon SHALL!

So YES a bit more Thought and we NEVER had to go for a Alien Covenant, you could have had Horrors that are related to the Xenomorph Unleashed.  And a 3rd Movie you could have Engineers Arrive who we then could get more Information about the Connection to the Xenomorph from.

The proposition was that the story was to take us on to our creators to find Elizabeths answers. To turn the story into a series of Babouska Dolls and devalue the Engineers (which happened in Covenant) was never the answer. 

Something happened between the time of the Seeding Billions of years ago and our creators ending up on the Moon. Find the answers to that and our creation can be given context. 

Thats not to deny that such a story, which contextualises the installation and the derelict will hold little interest for the core fans of the A L I E N franchise.

"Babouska Dolls" is something interesting to bring up as INDEED a Part of doing the Prequels was to Discover maybe WHO that was in the Pilot Chair on LV-426, well Certainly as FAR as the Space Jockey Species.  And so YES what we have ENDED UP with is kind of a Babouska Doll

The Idea was for a 27ft Space Jockey but in Reality we got a 21-22ft which then in the Closer Shots (used Adult Actors) then the Space Jockey had become its PROP SIZE and so we was looking at a 13-15ft being.

Which the Intention with the Prequels was to give us 12-15ft Engineers, but when it came down to Production they had aimed for 10ft but the ONLY kind of Illusion Created was up to 8ft.  I had Joked before that by the time we get to the CONCLUSION maybe they could reveal its a BEING that is Played by Warwick Davis as the Space Jockey the Final Babouska Doll ;)

I think that YES they had intended Originally to give us Humanoids who had that Certain Glossy Look to them, like they was made of Marble so they would look like a Roman/Greek Marble Statue this kind of Skin Tone/Texture does have that Synthetic look about it and so if they had decided to make our Prometheus Engineers something of a Sub-Creation or a Engineered/Evolved Variant of themselves then i think this makes sense when we consider other Elements of the Plot.

But this does make our Engineers who could be 6-8ft Tall (likely have some Diversity as they are now more Human looking), become LESS GODLIKE and Less like what Ancient Cultures of Gods had Depicted... However most cases the Gods had a Very Human Appearance it was their Clothing at times, Skin Color in some Cultures but their SIZE that made them STAND APART from a Human.   And so beings of 10-12ft does FIT more with Ancient Mythology etc.

However it could be Explored that the Sub-Created/Engineered... Super Engineers if you would could have GONE AROUND to Worlds and PRETENDED to be their GODS when this was NOT their DUTY.  It could be like say if the Colony on Origae-6 is SET-UP and then David goes and KILLS the Adults... and then Raises the Children/Embryos and Declares to THEM that he is their GOD and Creator.... when he is NOT.

There are Numerous ways that they could SHOW the Connection to our Creation and the Connection/Differences between our Planet 4 Engineers and LV-223 Guys.

Things are always SUBJECT to Change.... and while they may want to have us see those Planet 4 Engineers as the Originals and Very Much Mortals (RS said they Live for about 200 Years i think). They could CHANGE it back to have our Engineers from Prometheus being the GODS and those on Planet 4 are merely the Engineers attempts and a Upgraded Human.

I think that YES the Set-up would seem that we would go where David and Dr Shaw would be HEADING and that there are some BURNING QUESTIONS that we would have Expected some Answers too... and you would think that Dr Shaw would have had to be the ANCHOR point and our Proxy to get those Answers, rather than to just END-UP on a Slab of Stone.

The Engineers Technology is Many Millions of Years Old, and YES depending on WHERE the Sacrificial Scene had taken Place and HOW you Frame it, then you have a Time-Line of just HOW LONG ago this was.  But as RS had said this does-not have to be Earth, and so it could also be ANY TIME.. its to just SHOW how the Engineers Seed Worlds.

So they could Answer it as the Sacrificial Glossy Engineer was taking the GOO on a World that his KIND had wished to Corrupt/Desecrate and so they could have it that this WORLD would soon be Rampant with Neomorphs and the like!

However YES at the Shooting of the Movie then the IDEA was this was on Earth, and its the Beginning Point of either...  Building Blocks of LIFE or more likely the Catalyst that allowed for Multi-Cell and Complex Life to Form.

So the Engineers would come back OVER and OVER and Evolving Life at Intervals for Millions of Years...  UNTIL there was a Point when Humanoid Life had then WALKED on the Earth and then the Engineers appear to be making more Regular Visits to Teach us Various things. To Influence our Culture and Way of Life..... but there came a POINT when we had Influenced ourselves to ACT in ways that the Engineers were NOT pleased with.

It would seem after they had became Concerned with us this is WHEN they began those Experiments on LV-223, the Question would be was LV-223 a Outpost for over 35'000 Years?  And IF-SO was it Conducting Experiments trying to Create Horrors like we saw in Prometheus and the Fresco/Mural.

so YES we have to ask about WHAT KIND of Creation/Agenda did they have Millions of Years ago?  They seemed to be Interested in Creations in their OWN IMAGE and had Invested Time and Effort in coming to VISIT us for Tens of Thousands of Years.

To then become Obsessed/Interested in the HORRORS of LV-223 some Thousands of Years ago and so we have to ASK... had they been into that kind of Horrors for longer than 2000-3000 Years?  And so YES we have to WONDER as to WHEN they became Obsessed with that.

Because as a TOOL to RESET a World... then Dropping Down Urns of Sacrificial Goo would make more SENSE... but they was NOT CONTENT with that... so we have to look at WHAT was they thinking... and WAS what was going on LV-223 something the Hierarchy or Creators of those Engineers even AWARE of?

I do think that it would have been BETTER that we saw Dr Shaw get to the BOTTOM of some of those Questions... but ALAS.