The Engineers (Sub Creation)

The Concept from the START when Jon Spaights came in to work on a Prequel was while it would cover things related to the Xenomorph, it was to give us a Story we can Relate with to Introduce the Engineers.

Because as Jon Spaights had said... if your going to do a Prequel and we use the Space Jockey Race as the Skeleton of some Ancient Alien being then they may look a bit SILLY.  But then also how would Humans Interact with a Alien Species who dont speak the same Language.

So he felt the Space Jockey was Important, something you could Explore Deeper after you have Gave the Answers to ALIEN... but how to explore a ALIEN Species who surely would NOT be able to Communicate with us.

So he felt it was better to introduce the Space Jockey as a Space Suit, and the Occupants as Humanoids who played a Role in our Creation... so that you can then have a Plot that Connects to us, and where we could Communicate with them.

Even so.... HR Gigers Concepts clearly showed us Bald Humanoids in a Space Suit so its not like Jon Spaights was the First to Ponder such a Explanation.

So with Jon Spaights works it seemed to Start with them being the Gods... but they are NOT really Gods.

They are a Humanoid Race who maybe Evolved like we do in Real Life, they Advance past the Need for things we do today, they Advance past the need for Certain Culture and Religion and Evolve themselves to a Genetic Level of Advancement but also Socially in what they are Interested in, and eventually they abandon things like Relationships, Music, Art to a Degree... they Abandoned Sex and found other ways to Procreate..

UNTIL they had Evolved to Live for Thousands of Years and then Lost the Ability to Procreate Naturally.

Here is a Page from what Jon Spaights had done for FOX/RS as a Pitch to the Engineers.

This fitted with the Engineers and Elders from Prometheus.

But as things went by, to when we got Alien Covenant it seems the Engineers and their Role etc has Changed somewhat.

Could we get a Revelation the Hall of Heads represent a Older Species of Engineers who are more alike what Jon Spaights had Described in his Monologue to FOX/RS

Which Matches the Prometheus Engineers, but as those on Planet 4 are described as the Originals and so must Pre-Date the Prometheus Engineers... and so if the Hall of Heads are Engineers too they must Predate the Planet 4 Engineers and are likely more like those Engineers than the Prometheus ones..

But NONE of this is explained on Screen, its only from Comments by Ridley Scott and Chris Seagers... so things can be Changed!

By that have the Hall of Heads Elders as a more Ancient Advanced version, where some of those Sub-Created Planet 4 Engineers had decided to Evolve themselves to be like their Creators or Sub-Create something in the hope of Replicating their Creators.. The Hall of Heads Elders.

If David is to become the Space Jockey, and to end up oviposited, will the trick be him "not minding that it hurts"?

Creature prosthetics supervisor, Conor O'Sullivan refers to Ridley wanting the aspect of the naked Engineer to recall the characters of William Blake’s work, specifically William Blake’s rendition of Milton’s Satan, who is calling upon the other fallen angels to raise their parliament in Hell.

Certainly it was the case that RS had implied the Engineers are Fallen Angels, it would be Interesting to WONDER of which Engineers are he referring to... the LV-223 Ones and all of them?  Or only a Number of them, or the Engineers in General.

For them to be Fallen... they either or and... would have had to had Rebelled against their Creators or Hierarchy/Leaders., had done things against what their Creators or Hierarchy/Leaders had intended.... or attempted to Corrupt/Change their Creators or Hierarchy/Leaders Creations and Plans..

IF the Intention was to show the Naked/Sacrificial Engineer as a Prometheus/Lucifer Figure then i cant see how this would apply, as he was just Following Orders, and its not like after his Death he could Influence us..

So in context to Fallen... then it must be the Actions of those who had Commanded that Engineer to Carry out that Act... who Committed a Fallen Action, or that from the Sacrifice lead to Creation that became Fallen. Be this becoming the LV-223 Engineers?

The only way that Engineer could Solely be considered to be Fallen by himself would be if he Remote Controlled the Ship that dropped him off and Performed this Action by his OWN for his own Agenda...  (we dont see the other Engineers in the Theatrical Cut, so that could be a way of looking at it).

I think when we consider Alien Covenant and Revelations that Ridley Scott and Chris Seagers had made regarding the Engineers,  then it could seem the Prometheus Type Engineers had committed the Role of Fallen Angels.

Regarding the Space Jockey and David... boy that would upset the FANS!... but i would NOT rule out that as the Climax of the Prequels... or ONE of his Creations.. so either HIM or ONE of his Creations becomes the Space Jockey as a Act of Hubris or Redemption....  we cant RULE that out!

I am sure such a Curve-ball like that would BUM most Fans out.... so they would rather have a Engineer be in that Seat!

What about dating? what about the dilatation of time if they flew to the lV and 4 planets at speeds above the speed of light, how many years have passed on earth at that time? a few thousand or millions and if the harvest engineers were to arrive on earth 2000 years ago, if they had flown, they would have arrived in film time, not 2000 years ago. so if Prometheus took off then a dozen generations of people to earth will not get an answer from him or return to see their one man in life.

I didn`t think that LV-223 is so popular lol

Revisiting this topic, makes me sad to think the Engineer side of the Alien storyline might not be continued in Disney's next installment...

I think the Engineer Story was Interesting and could have been Explored in many ways, i know a LOT of People were Disappointed with the ARC/Revelations and would WANT to see Space Jockey Suited Engineers just TURN UP with their Bio-Weapons and KICK-ASS but i would have been more Interesting in their History, their Culture and Question if they have other Conflicts among themselves.

Looking back at the Movies and Comments by RS etc... then i am still DRAWN to the LV-223 Engineers being either.

1) A Genetically Engineered Sub-Creation of the Engineers.

or

2) A Group of Engineers who had Genetically Engineered themselves to be Superior.

And thus PRIOR to the Genetic Engineering/Evolution they would have looked MORE LIKE those we saw on Planet 4.

I agree with you Chris on this one. It would be sad if they would erase the Engineers and give us another Xeno-movie. We have had Xenos in the first four and the AVP's and also in Alien Covenant although briefly (due to studio-pressure?). Even though Prometheus is very flawed adding the Engineers was a very good thing since it expanded the franchise. To me they should introduce new worlds, and new civilizations and not just have the Xeno every time because that gets old.

About the Engineers, I pretty much preferred those in Prometheus compared to those in AC. The Prometheus-Engineers looked bigger and more alien. Unfortunately the Engineers in Alien Covenant looked more like people with face-paint. Maybe they looked like that because of the budget so they couldn't make them more interesting and also they were just in the movie briefly. Let's think about it, if you will just have something in a short scene then maybe you won't care that much to make it look good compared to other things that will feature for a longer time in the movie. What BD said about the original Engineers and the steroid-version makes sense but it makes the original ones look lame if we by the originals mean those that we saw briefly in AC. They could have looked more interesting and alien.

Maybe there will be a new movie some day (doubtful at this point) and then I hope that they will be back. Hopefully we will see both the smaller Engineers and the bigger ones. They are just too interesting to throw in the trash-can. Star Trek and Star Wars can have different things so why not the Alien-franchise? Eventually it won't make as much money but you can at least expand it beyond what we had in the first four even though Resurrection is a joke with some good things in it.

The Engineers have potential, you just have to make them interesting and make sense of it.

In Regards to the Engineers i know that some had been DISAPPOINTED with what we saw in Alien Covenant.  However RS did say that they ARE how he INTENDED them to look.

I think if you look at them, then if they Spent a Extra 45 Min in Make Up each, then you could have given them a Pale Skin that has more Gloss (this could also be Highlighted in CGI) and then they could have had Contact Lenses in and LOOKED a bit more like in Prometheus.

THIS would NOT have Greatly Increased Budget or Production Time and so MAYBE the Aesthetic was NOT due to Budget/Time and INDEED this is just HOW they wanted our Engineers to appear.

Looking at his Comments it seems the Intention could be that the LV-223 Engineers are either

1) Sub-Created Superior Species for a Purpose and so they are Basically like Engineer Replicants and so similar to David.

2) A Group of Engineers who are Genetically Modified/Evolved and then its a Case of was this the Engineer Agenda, or was this a Faction of Engineers who had Genetically Altered themselves?

Ridley Scott had spoken about the Engineers in Alien Covenant, and he had said they are NOT a RACE but they are a Civilization, he had also said prior that just because Humans have different Races then WHY cant the same be said for the Engineers.  I also recall he had said those on Planet 4 where the Original Engineers.

I know this may seem a Disappointment as it makes the Space Jockey become something EVEN LESS ALIEN.  But the KEY THEME is that ANYONE can become a Creator with the Knowledge and Technology.  Lets say that some Scientist managed to Combine the Best Traits of a Human and Ape, just to show THEY COULD! and so we have Created a PLANET OF THE APES Species... the HUBRIS is this Species could OVERTHROW us and so we get to a PLANET OF THE APES.... and the Hubris/Tale would be thats WHAT you GET for Playing GOD.

But such a PLOT does mean the Engineers are NOT as GODLIKE as some would have wanted to see, then its like i Mentioned on another TOPIC.... if you took a Group of Humans from 100 Years Time in a Time-Traveling Vehicle and they went back in Time say 2000-3000 Years ago then THEY would seem somewhat GODLIKE.

I still think it would be a GOOD IDEA to Introduce a Race who came before the Engineers and have them appear more GODLIKE.

However i think HAD we seen RS get to Continue with the Prequels then such a ALPHA Race would actually be Created by David on Origae-6 and maybe become the Space Jockey on LV-426

“However i think HAD we seen RS get to Continue with the Prequels then such a ALPHA Race would actually be Created by David on Origae-6 and maybe become the Space Jockey on LV-426.”

No thanks, it's too much about David already. I'm not sure if you support such a thing but I think that they shouldn't have anything to do with David. Hopefully Disney would give him a big no in case that would be his idea. To me that would be to destroy the prequels but Scott is too much into the android-thing and I don't find it interesting.

In case they would introduce another life-form then they shouldn't have anything to do with David at all. Hopefully this would take away some of the focus from the android-thing. The story has been hijacked by this David-focus. Maybe they could kill him off early in the movie and carry on with things that are more interesting. They could have the AC-Engineers in it but have more about other kind of Engineers that could be more interesting. I think that the prequels need writers that are good at what they are doing and an director that knows his or her limits and that doesn't interfere with the story.

The alpha-race that you suggest would be created by David seems to be so and so. Why should everything be about an android? The existence of something above the Engineers seems like an interesting idea so I'm not totally bashing your suggestion. What I am against is David creating them. If they have tried something in two movies and the result has been a mixed bag then it seems foolish to me to continue with it. Hopefully they will reduce the role of him heavily, I'm tired of it. Some other life-form from somewhere else could be interesting so in that way it could expand the franchise. The focus on the android has made the franchise smaller, because it could be so much more interesting.

"The story has been hijacked by this David-focus"

It seems that THIS was the Main Force behind the Prequels, looking back before Alien Covenant (inc the Drafts) there seems to had been 3 other sets of Concepts,(where it was about David)  and IF the Source i had was Correct then even prior to THEM what we had again was a Story that was Central to David.... and WHAT he would Create.

Some Fans are ok with this, to Degree and others SIMPLY do-not want any Story about Androids....

And so when i mention ALPHA-RACE i mainly think that you could go and EXPLORE another Race who are ABOVE the Engineers, they could be LESS-HUMAN or even Totally NOT Humanoid.

I only Mention such a Race in Context to David in regards to WHAT i think was going to come NEXT and so in that Case it would NOT have been a ALPHA RACE but more a OMEGA RACE.

I suspect that David would Create a more Perfect Human Species from those Human Embryos and he would Charade to them that he is their GOD and Creator...  UNTIL other Humans Turn up and his Creations then DISCOVER their TRUE ORIGINS and Davids... and well thats when Creating those beings becomes a DOWNFALL for David.

And so i SUSPECT that the Space Jockey would have been either David (in a Newer Synthetic Body), one of Davids Creations (Humans MK2) or maybe another Synthetic who is TRYING to STOP what David intends.

It may have ENDED UP being a Engineer but i SUSPECT that RS would have Thrown some Curve-balls that LIKELY would have Ruffled more Feathers.

I just dont think MANY Fans would be Happy at such though....

I do THINK that the Franchise could Explore other Races that Created the Engineers or that the Engineers had Created and by doing so either in SETTING a STORY that is FAR FAR AWAY or a VERY LONG TIME AGO... or Both

I'm just glad they kept the Engineers human, not giving them prosthetic ears / nose / etc.... Last thing we need is to venture into Star Trek / Star Wars universe. ( IMHO )

I think YES it was RIGHT to make the Engineers appear more Human as THIS does FIT with the Ancient Astronaut kind of PLOT where Many Accounts of Ancient Gods/Religions have our Gods as being VERY HUMAN looking.

If we introduced a RACE who are ABOVE the Engineers and their Creators, do we then make them LESS HUMAN?  I think maybe but maybe you DONT make them too FAR APART and ALIEN looking?

"Last thing we need is to venture into Star Trek / Star Wars universe"

Who knows what the PLANS would have been for RS had the Prequels been a GREAT SUCCESS!  I think he would have SHOWN us Various Worlds with Various Races and i do think some would be Humanoid but Different and so i would NOT say that he would have STEERED AWAY from being a bit of a Star Trek/Star Wars.

It would be Interesting to see what Arcturian Poontang looks like as in the Arcturians as a Species.. are they a Creation by the Engineers? could they be a Creation by David?

BD

"It seems that THIS was the Main Force behind the Prequels..."

If that's the case I would say that they went wrong from the beginning. They should have made it re-written to tone down David's role because at least I'm not interested in it. Human history and the Engineers yes, David no. Let it be in a spin-off movie about androids in the alien-franchise but not in the major ones. A sort of Rogue One in the Alien-universe about androids could be OK if it's done in an interesting way but not in the major movies.

"And so when i mention ALPHA-RACE i mainly think that you could go and EXPLORE another Race who are ABOVE the Engineers, they could be LESS-HUMAN or even Totally NOT Humanoid."

That seems interesting, I would support that. Get some decent writers and a director that doesn't interfere with the story. They could look around for inspiration and try to use that to expand the franchise into involving other things. Androids could be a part of the story but not be the story. It would be interesting to see what kind of rituals they have, architecture, medicine, and so on. These are things that I hoped to see in Alien Covenant but they messed it up.

"I suspect that David would Create a more Perfect Human Species from those Human Embryos and he would Charade to them that he is their GOD and Creator... UNTIL other Humans Turn up and his Creations then DISCOVER their TRUE ORIGINS and Davids... and well thats when Creating those beings becomes a DOWNFALL for David."

Whatever, I don't care about that even though I'm fine with the fact that some people enjoy such a thing. That sounds like Raised By Wolves, something that I'm not very interested in since it seems that the characters are lame plus the over-reliance on androids. You mention themes, they are interesting but the story isn't. A story got to work for me otherwise the themes don't matter that much.

An Engineer as the SJ seems to make more sense but it shouldn't have anything to do with David. Right now it's all about a mad robot, which quite frankly is crap. Some people might find the android-tale to be interesting and that's their right to do so but I don't like it.

"I do THINK that the Franchise could Explore other Races that Created the Engineers or that the Engineers had Created and by doing so either in SETTING a STORY that is FAR FAR AWAY or a VERY LONG TIME AGO... or Both"

That would be awesome, hopefully they get some decent writers that can write and that know that the franchise needs to expand beyond Xenos and David.

I think that ONE of the things that RS was going for is to ASK US...

What Constitutes Creation?, a SOUL and Immortality.

So the Engineers have Created/Evolved Life that has became US... so you can Genetically Modify and Engineer Biology to Create a Intelligent Biological Life-Form.

But it was to SHOW us that WHY cant that be done with Artificial Creation, a None-Organic Creation and so with David its Basically to SHOW that he is MORE HUMAN than we think... YET he does-not have the Disadvantages of being Human.

But the Emphasis became TOO MUCH about HIM and i am sure Many Fans would have seen him as a SUPPORTING ROLE.

As for the Space Jockey i think its a MISTAKE to even go and make the Prequels eventually LEAD to  that EVENT... I think the Space Jockey should Eventually be revealed to be a Engineer or the Race who are ABOVE the Engineers.

But i SUSPECT that it would be a Creation of David, and would NOT go and RULE-OUT that we would have Concluded with this 10ft Being that David had Created would have DAVIDS SOUL that is Transferred to it some HOW!

Without David it's just evil scientist / evil corporation doing it for the money ( Done to death by thousands of movies / novels IMHO ).

I consider David an immortal version of Peter Weyland. But as where Peter would have to involve greedy / gossipy / stupid humans ( Prometheus ), David insulates us from that.

I like David as judge, jury, executioner. Cut out the middle humans.

I too, don't want the Space Jockey touched....But I'm really curious on just what RS has in mind and would gladly shell out a large amount of money to find out!

I think the Basis that RS is going for is about PLAYING GOD.....

The New Planet of the Apes is kind of a Example.... But lets just say that some Scientist wants to Experiment with the Genomes of a Human and Ape to TRY and make a HYBRID... in Part for Curiosity, in Part because such a THING could be USEFUL for Certain Tasks (like Replicants were used for)  but its also for the Creators Vanity to just SHOW that they CAN and so HOW Successful they are with Genetics.

So you Create a Hybrid so the APE has more Dexterity, it has Superior Speed, Agility and Strength, but its NOT as Smart as a Human.   However NO SOON as you then Enhance the Hybrid so that it can be as EQUAL to a Human in Intelligence and these Hybrids become Sentient and see themselves as the Superior Species.

Then if you have NO CONTROL over them, and they CAN and START to Procreate at a Quick Pace...... then your IN TROUBLE.... and you have the HUBRIS of trying to PLAY GOD will come back and BITE YA in the ASS!

The same thing can be said with Replicants if they Managed to Extend their Lives to Hundreds of Years.... thats Potential Trouble for Mankind.

And so THIS is kind of what RS is going for on Multiple Levels, but he had Decided to Concentrate this down to DAVID.... to show and QUESTION that if you can Create a Artificial Person who has Emotions, Desire and Ambition and Feelings then are THEY really much Different to us?

So we are Essentially Biological Machines... we Differ from Apes because we are more Intelligent and can Accomplish more than a Ape... and so CAN our David.

Do Apes have SOULS? and so then its WHY do we have SOULS or what would Constitute our Souls?   And if our Soul is our Memories, our Emotions, our Empathy or Lack Of, all these things that make us WHO we are.  And so we HAVE NO SPIRITUAL SOUL.... then David indeed is Immortal and has a Soul too.

But i know to take the Creation Cake down to the Layer of David and WHAT he would CREATE is maybe NOT to everyone's CUP OF TEA....

I am sure that Fans would have liked to see WHY and WHAT ELSE the Engineers have Created and WHO had Created them!

Regarding David and whats NEXT..... i suspect that he would go on to CREATE his own Humanoids and those Human Embryos would be getting EVOLVED. But OF COURSE..... this will be a Great Hubris and Downfall for David.

But indeed i think it would be Interesting to see WHAT ELSE the Engineers had Created as the PLOT seems to be they are MORE INTERESTED in Creating Life like Humans than Monsters like the Xenomorph.....  But when these Shepard's (Engineers) find their Lambs  are becoming a Problem/Disruptive then having a WOLF to Deal with them is Handy... but its NOT about the WOLF this was ALIEN and LV-223 i think there was more SCOPE in seeing WHAT other Races the Engineers have Created/Evolved.

with David i think we have seen his WOLF and he has Proven he can Create a more Perfect Wolf than the Engineers had on LV-223, and i think David would NOW want to show he can Create more Perfect Lambs than the Engineers had too.

Regarding the OT

A lot has Changed since Prometheus, with the REMOVAL of the Elders scene then the Prometheus Engineers could be just SOULLESS CLONES..  They are Created to SEED the Worlds and then also to MESS ABOUT with other Stuff so the Main Engineer Species can have their LITTLE HAPPY BORING LIVES ;)

The way to look at is IF we Seed other Worlds using Human Sacrifices... but then you Create say Replicants or Clones who you then DEEM as NOT having Human Rights, and so you then Sacrifice them instead as they STILL have the same DNA/Building Blocks for LIFE.

Or another way could be as i have said that maybe SOME of the Engineers decide to USE their Creation Tools to Borrow Traits of other Organisms to Genetically Alter and PERFECT themselves....

"I'm just glad they kept the Engineers human, not giving them prosthetic ears / nose / etc.... Last thing we need is to venture into Star Trek / Star Wars universe. ( IMHO )"

What Jon Spaights recognised early on is that to make the story relatable you need this to be a humanoid story. 

Unconsciously or otherwise you then move into the very fertile area, "that God made man in his image." 

Whilst Prometheus was never going to prove Elizabeth right that statement that God made man is implicit in the opening scene by a combination of Engineered ingredients man was made/engineered and God would not make his creation look or be different from what their physical form took.

Indeed given that the incident by the waterfall sped up creation that transmission was more important in imparting 'something' as opposed to being pre occupied with physical appearance. The creatures of the Moon missed this point and when they started to sub create (the deacon) physical form became important but what it should really have told them is all those unholy creations which lead to the Deacon missed the point of the original seeding and the further degradation (the creature) was an extension of that. 

This of course is written in the context of everything said and done up to the 12th June 2012. The Engineers of Covenant looked the way they did to save money according to the production team. That they looked less pure less David like (Michelangelo not Fassbender) enabled Ridley to say they were the originals.