The Cave
chli
MemberChestbursterJanuary 31, 2018This has of course been discussed before, but since we have nothing better to do while waiting for a sequel to the prequels :), we might as well discuss it some more, and what might be a possible way of connecting Alien: Awakening and the original Alien movie?
Kane clearly says that it’s a cave he enters while being lowered down the long hole to investigate what’s down there. It’s a huge cave which seems to be partly alien made with rows after rows of eggs and hatching devices (such as the mist covering the eggs). This cannot be a part of the juggernaut/derelict since it’s too big - “it’s huge” as Parker would have said. :)
This leads me to my thesis: LV-426 is where the eggs have been created. None of the juggernauts we have encountered in the movies has had eggs in the cargo hold. What they have stored there are urns filled with the mutagen/pathogen (the black goo).
So, what was the space jockey and the derelict doing on LV-426? Well, one answer might be that he brought the mutagen there which was needed in order to create the eggs (more eggs). It might even be possible that the opening (which Kane enters) is a hatch which can be opened and positioned just above the hole leading down into the cave? Through here they could lower down the mutagen so they can produce more eggs? But, as the space jockey opens the hatch, a face hugger, which has left one of the eggs down in the hatchery, crawls out and launches itself onto the face of the space jockey. When he awakens, the chestburster is on its way out and he has just enough time to set the warning signal?
The time and creation issues surrounding the eggs have become a huge problem since we have two paths to choose from: either they are ancient (David merely re-creates/evolves them) or David creates them?
But, in this scenario, the mutagen is created on LV-223 and the eggs on LV-426. The mutagen must be fetched from LV-223 and transported (in the cargo hold) to LV-426 where it is unloaded.
The outbreak on LV-223, about 2000 years prior to Prometheus, might have nothing to do with the space jockey and the derelict and the eggs on LV-426, it’s just an accident with the mutagen (which Captain Janek explains).
But, in order to make this work, the alien-made cave with the hatchery and the eggs on LV-426 need to be ancient and there would, most likely, be an experimental facility connected to it where abducted human females or sacrificed engineer women were used in order to produce the eggs?
@daliens
I could try and give my two cents to some of those Questions, but it may end up being a bit off topic, but if anyone wants to know my two cents i will post them. I will roughly cover the Derelict Ship though.
Indeed the idea was TWO separate locations, and HR Giger would have began Production on both the Egg Chamber shots and interior of the Derelict, prior to finding out that they have to combine them as being in the same location (on board the Derelict). I ASSUME the Acid Burn Hole was necessary in the Pilot Chamber if they are going the route to show the Cargo Hold is under the Derelict due to Kane having to descend. So they would have to come up with some way of having a Plot Point for how they would get from the Pilot Room to the Egg Chamber. I will have to read the TWO Alien Drafts to check this out though.
so we are left with the Acid Hole, that appears to be burnt down so its LIKELY the Acid Melted downwards, what can cause this? A Wounded/Dead Xenomorph Organism, be it Adult or a Face Hugger. I struggle to see how a Face Hugger would create that Hole however. THUS leaving the ACID HOLE one of the Bigger Mysteries we have never had a answer for... apart from in one expanded universe Novel, where it was a Killed Xenomorph via a Firefight. That happened way after the Derelict Crashed... if i remember? I have not read the Novel and just only a broad synopsis and few Plot details.
One last thing.... the Space Jockey color does not match those Engineer Suits which have also been there for THOUSANDS of years, this is a Great Point.... however, only the Space Jockey and part of the Chair he is attached to have that Bone Color to them, the rest of the Chair and Chamber is a similar color to the Juggernauts. Which has led to some speculating the Space Jockey must thus be similar to this image.
Ridley Scott had Explained the Space Jockey Event in a bit of detail after Prometheus, but i wont cover it now as what he said has no bearing on the Franchise now with the U-Turn that the Xenomorph is a Creation of Davids.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Well this topic has certainly got my old brain cells working. I prefer to go with the idea that the cave is a manufactured storage facility. After thinking about this as a design problem, the main issue I see is, how does the derelict connect to the egg silo?
Given all the issues with scale, I find approaching the problem by treating the silo as an external structure to the derelict opens up some interesting possibilities.
In Alien the Nostromo was capable of towing an entire refinery, so could the derelict have been capable of carrying a portable egg silo ? Could the silo then be detached from the derelict for it to go an get eggs from some where else and then deliver them to the silo for storage? Looking at Giger’s original egg delivery system it would seem logical that the derelict was there to deposit eggs rather than remove them, but that is just my interpretation.
The thing that jumps out from all this is that it seems highly unlikely that the egg delivery system is a result of something that David has manufactured, which leads me to conclude that the Engineers were farming eggs well in advance of David.
From Giger’s original drawings, Kane would also have descended from the derelict into the silo via an egg shute.
BigDave - Thank you for sharing the scuba diver space jockey images. I like the design very much. It would be good to see this version in the Alien prequel.
Batchpool - Thank you for these concept art! They are from 2011, probably they belong to one of the first versions of Prometheus taking place on LV-426:
'the Engineers were farming eggs well in advance of David'
Before entering the egg room in Alien Covenant, David touches an egg in the lab - not the sliced one. It's only a moment in the movie. That egg had been made by the Engineers, then was found by David on Planet 4. It seems to be obvious that the Engineers are the creators of the original eggs, and David recreated them.
In spite of this fact, it is impossible to tell now who the creators of the eggs on the Derelict are. They can be the Engineers, or David, or a third unknown party as well - since the Engineers could have found the original eggs, too. In short, anything is possible...
Thanks for those images Batchpool
The first of greater interest as this SET was used for both the Egg Silo and Pilot Chamber, they simply swapped out the Eggs for the Pilot Chair Platform, the whole set is cut off about Half Way.
The shot above is a Matt Painting but they modeled the Set that we see Kane actually walk down and enter the area of the Eggs, was replicated to match up to the Blue Line. I am sure they then used the same SET for the Space Jockey Scene where the Platform was placed where the Green Oval is. So it would appear that the Pilot Chamber was very Large too. As far as if we could have panned to the left and right and looked up.
But in Alien we did not get to see much of the room, and so i think the Alien Isolation DL Marlow and Derelict game content maybe did a good representation of what it could have looked like, i think the Bonus Game did a very good job of the Egg Chamber.
The MOST INTERESTING element of the Game Extra is as they lower themselves into the Cargo Hold they actually go past what looks like a Cave, well Lime Residue of some Caves. But the same kind of feature starts at the top of the Hole, so maybe its the Acid Burnt Hole but it would take some LARGE Acid Spill to cause that much.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Also Batchpool neat idea about the separate Egg Silo.
about 5-6 years ago maybe a bit less we had Topics regarding the Egg Chamber and back then i brought up the THUNDERBIRD 2 Ship from Thunderbirds, and pondered could the Derelict Actually attach to the Egg Silo, maybe it does not fit all the way inside like Thunderbird 2 Cargo, but the image of when Thunderbird 2 is raised above its Cargo and about to then drop down onto it, reminded me of maybe how a Separate Egg Silo could attach?
The Egg Silo likely being round in shape, either like a Flying Saucer or a Ball/Egg
However..... even if we think about something like this, the size of the Egg Cargo as shown in Alien would be much larger than the Derelict.
Ive used this Art by Yurii lebediev Organic UFO and if we assume the Egg Silo is this size i have added what i think the Derelict is likely like compared.
I would not take this size comparison too seriously though, i just have a feeling the Alien Egg Chamber appears to be Circular but then it does not quite fit a Donuts Shape, the impression from the Long Shot where Kane Descends is maybe the Cargo Holds are Shaped like the Flower Cake Maker.
Where the RED is the Section we only see, the Dots to show where the Eggs are LOL
So indeed i think again size wise the Cargo Hold would be too large to not only fit under the Derelict but also even as far as a Separate Caro Module, it would be too large to carry but we dont know what Engineer Technology is capable of.
So a Separate Cargo Module the Derelict Collects cant be ruled out, but i think the Theory that the Egg Silo/Chamber is separate seems more suitable.
I think the most Lazy Fix they can give is introduce a more Ancient Juggernaught type Ship that is exactly like the Derelict, but have it appear much larger inside when its explored and also have the Cargo Hold made a bit smaller, but still much larger than you would assume would fit, and EXPLAIN these Ancient Ships had a Technology to make Something Larger inside than Out.... Like Dr Who's TARDIS
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
@Critters5
Thanks for the Video Link, i actually found some of the Comic Depictions not to good, i would however like to have it revealed the Space Jockey Race is another Race that are either above the Engineers, or the Engineers Stole Technology off, or vice versa.
I would maybe still go for a Space Suit but have the beings inside look less Human than the Engineers, because when i look at HR Gigers Concept, the Space Jockey looks like a Suit, well it looks Bio-Mechanical like the Xenomorph and so not a Skeleton of some Organic Organism.
I do think some ideas from the Comics could be used, such as the Space Jockey Telepathic Ability, if one comunicated with a Human then we would not need Subtitles as we could hear a voice inside the Humans head etc.
I also like the Space Jockey idea of appearing as Benevolent but then having a hidden Malevolent Agenda. The Space Jockey very HR Giger Aesthetic World would be something interesting to see too. I have only read one of those comics but i have seen the images from the others and so back ground information from them was interesting, it appears some of the Atheistic and Scenes from the other comics MAY have influenced some of the Back Ground Plot that Alien Engineers/Prometheus had explored (but not the creation one off course), the one Space Jockey Born Xenomorph does look similar to some of the unused ULTRAMORPH designs too.
@ATI
I can see how that kind of design would fit, because the Space Jockey was the same color as that part behind his back, so we can see how some have designed some ideas that incorporate it as some kind of Back Pack or Shell.
I think these are better designs than the Comics used in that link Critters5 posted, but i would like to see the Space Jockey revealed as some 12ft tall Bio-Mechanical being, much like the Engineers suits, but have the Helmet look more like the one in Alien and the Color a bit different for the whole Creature.
But have it as a mask all the same but under it something not so Human at all.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
@Critters5
I think they still look odd, i prefer the idea that we got as far as the Space Jockey Suits, the Space Jockey does look slightly more Skeletal but this is mainly the Head/Helmet and the Pipe/Trunk is definitely not Organic at all.
I think introducing another Race as the Space Jockey could Freshen things up, have a different color to the Engineers SJ suits, make the Space Jockey Taller, and under the Helmet something less Human.
Forgive my Editing Skills LOL, i took a different color Engineer Space Jockey Suit, i made the Torso Wider in Proportion to Arms and Legs, and made Arms and Legs longer a bit compared to Original Proportions, i think crudely stuck on a different Humanoid Head, but we could be more adventurous than this head, but it had a Elongated look.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I have used various other images to try and gauge the size of the Egg Chamber components which has lead me to a Width of the 3 Sections within each part thats broken up to be Between 50-60 Feet Wide, and looking at other images i have estimated the Height to be 80-100 Feet (Internal Height) These are rough Guess work though.
But i would safely assume the Height from Pilot Chair Floor to Bottom of the Derelict has to be 100-125 Feet, the other dimensions are hard to Gauge but the distance Wall to Wall has to be 150-200ft? And from what we can see the distance from where Kane Lands to as far as the Eye can see has to be at least 300ft but could be up to 450ft? which means the Cameras Total Shot is a good 400-500Ft and we have to assume the Total Length of the Cargo Hold has to be at least 2-3X this.
The Derelict is not 1000-1500 Feet Long at Widest Point, and depends on the Layout of the Egg Chamber, because if this is Circular kind of Chamber then the Derelict would have to be 1500-2000ft to incorporate it and then, the Wall to Wall Width would also be way to deep for the Derelict. Then we have the Height, the Cargo Hold is at least as tall as the Derelict, and looking at the Space Bellow the Pilot Chair its about 100ft too short at least.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Excellent reference Batchpool with "When in Rome." regarding the lavender.
Yes, David paid a little too much attention to his hair and we would suspect that he would not be covered in filth after so much pampering on the way to LV-223. Building on that, David may have used the lavender-like balm himself as to soften the ammonia smell but certainly to prep anyone he could convince to follow him to the egg room on Planet 4.
Also, thank you the 2011 concept art. Amazing artwork and I agree with Ati regarding the relationship to Prometheus' original destination being LV-426.
Thank you for concentrating on the potential underground system on LV-426 chli. I'm leaning toward a cave system setup on LV-426. Especially after the concept work for Prometheus had a similar construction before the switch to a LV-223 and the limitations steering Alien's filming described earlier. We have seen underground systems on both LV-223 and Planet 4. So, if Ripley is incorrect and the ship wasn't derelict then LV-426 is another installation.
Thank you BigDave for tackling this, below.
"I will first tackle the Origins of the Cargo Hold, when working on the earlier drafts to Alien, there was supposed to be a separate Pyramid and Derelict Ship and the Cargo of Eggs was inside the Pyramid, during Production HR Giger had came in to design the Derelict and Pyramid which HR Giger now replaced with a Giant Egg Silo. Due to budget restraints they had to combine the work done on the Egg Silo and make it appear as if it was part of the Derelict Ships Cargo."
Great stuff. The pilot's chair shown in the LV-223 juggernaut escapes from a recess and rises in an erect position (opposed to folded/compressed start position) from below the orrery.
This recess below certainly reconciles with the dimensions cited above for the derelict ship on LV-426 and tends toward an external system outside the ship.
Alien Novelization
In the Alien novelization, page 79, Kane's decent is described in detail "Holding himself motionless, he switched on his light-bar, pointed it down. It showed him ten meters of dull-colored metal before dissolving into nothingness."
"Out of breath again he paused in his descent to run a check of his suit instrumentation. 'Interesting,' he said into his pickup. 'I'm below ground level.'"
Alien novelization, page 80.
