Space Jockeys are Engineers?

Ridley wanted Space Jockeys = Engineers, and that's what he presented. You can argue the height of the creatures or the slight differences in décor - but ultimately they're the same.

Following my viewing of Prometheus as well as the marketing leading up to, the size comparison alone just simply doesn't add up.

It has been and still is my going theory that the "Space Jockey" is a higher being to that of the Engineers. One step closer to "God", if you will, but still only a slave to the system and a worker taxed with managing the galaxy. Like Humans imitate their creators, the Engineers undoubtedly did the same. It's inevitable and history has a way of repeating itself. It seems to also be one of the primary themes present throughout Prometheus.

So, I think you're right! I think the Engineers and Jockeys are very different beings. Where I disagree is regarding the Black Goo. I've heard theories suggesting that it is in fact Engineer blood - BUT what if the Black Goo is in fact Space Jockey blood? Perhaps that's why the Sacrificial Engineer drank it in a ceremonial way? Maybe that's why they required it in order to alter / create new life? Who knows! But I'm definitely of the mindset that the Engineers were mere imitators to their own creators, much like Humans.

Hmm...What is the point of the Jockey chair? is it for navigation? a weapon?

Do they sleep in the chair? if they do, then I think the shell is a hyper sleep chamber and needs to be completely sealed. I think the suits 'molds' around the pilot. Encapsulates them. Seamless. You can Hypersleep or pull massive G's.

The Juggernaut might be needed to fly near(or into) the event horizons of black holes and need to have a really tough skin to help them combat the intense Gamma rays and incredible G forces.

'shrugs'

I don't think Ridley, or Fox want to introduce any new species. Think they want to keep just Humans....Elders(Engineers) and the Xeno/MORBS.

Although, if we are to go along with the ideology that the Engineers do equal Space Jockeys as S.M. pointed out. Then perhaps the Space Jockey seen in Alien is simply an "older model". The less "techy" looking suit could be indicative of a more primitive design before the Engineers further developed their technology?

But, I think keeping them separate species would be best for maintaining mystery.

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This topic has been covered (on this forum) numerous times over the past 4 years. But I'm really glad that you've brought the subject up again.

The very noticeable differencies in the design of the Derelict and Space Jockey (ALIEN) compared to the Juggernauts and Engineers (Prometheus) is very obvious to me and something which really bothers me!

To the discerning viewer, the above are two completely separate creatures.

In ALIEN, has we approach the derelict with Kane, Dallas and Lambert, we get the sense that this "ship" is somewhat organic (a clear indication that this is something completely ALIEN to our understanding.)

Has we enter the "ship" and walk through the corridors, we get a sense of being inside some sort of part organic organism. 

While walking down the corridor Kane discovers some ladders leading up the side of the pilot turntable where they discover the Space Jockey.

The Space Jockey is huge, apparently 26 feet long, (although me and BigDave narrowed him down to around 15 feet long when compared to one of the sculptors.)

He appears fossilized or Ossified and gives the impression that he has been there, in that state, for thousands, if not millions of years.

The pilot chamber is very creepy with its giant bone walls. The whole thing just shouts "Get the fuck out of here, Now!"

With Prometheus, the juggernaut is much less organic in appearance. The Space Jockey "suit" is smaller than the proper Space Jockey.

I'll never forget my misses saying the awful words "Aww Cute!" (regarding the Prometheus space jockey suit,) when I first showed her the Prometheus trailer. LOL that was a big face palm moment and I'd not even seen the film at that point. 

Yep, if you look closely you can see a massive difference.

ALIEN space jockey's arms appear to be much longer than the Prometheus SJ's.

ALIEN space jockey's "trunk" (air hose) looks like a corrugated pipe. Where as the Prometheus Space Jockey's looks like an elephants trunk.

For me, it would be great if we discover that the Space Jockey race and the engineers are two completely different species.

That the Engineers, during their explorations of the universe, discovered the Space Jockey (Giger God race) and became inspired to back engineer there technology, sort of. 

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Where to start lol

This is like many Topics within the Franchise, its a case of what we take as Canon or not, do we include Concept Work or not, do we go by Production Crew and Ridleys Comments or not.

Let me just say that for sakes of Arguments, indeed the idea was that our Engineers and Space Jockey are Similar if not the SAME.... Spaights draft was going that route.... Lindeloffs still kept to it too.

Ridley Scot had said also that the Space Jockey,Derelict and Engineers and Juggernaughts are related they are BROTHERS...  he also said another time they are similar beings.

So yes this seemed to be the Plan, also Ridley had said prior to Prometheus was even conceived that the Space Jockey was a Space Suit.

Things can change however.... so the Space Jockey is a Engineer may not be taken as FACT but they will be shown to be similar and related much like Mankind is to the Engineers at the very least....

The case for Prometheus was that they are intended to had been the same.....

But Post Prometheus things have changed somewhat.... Prometheus we had the Elders, but Ridley removed them because on one hand he was not impressed with them as being Godlike beings... and then he also commented that he did not wish to meet GOD in the first movie.

Ridley then has dropped hints of Fallen Angels, and Paradise Lost and a Gods.... Rappace said maybe Shaw and David would meet God or the Devil.

This points to that their is another Race/Being in the Chain above the Engineers, maybe the Elders but we cant rule out that Ridley is replacing the Elders with something different.

But regardless the Space Jockey would be in effect a Space Suit, but it could be shown as being the Space Suit for....

1) Just another Engineer, and maybe there sizes vary?

2) Some race related to the Engineers, and maybe Man, and maybe Giants of Old (Nephilim).

3) Elder or being above the Engineers in the Hierarchy

Others who speculate we would be seeing David, Shaw, or some other Human is the Space Jockey but i dont buy that at all.

Now onto the differences....

Yes there are a few... first the size... this was just a case of a mistake by Scot in shooting and Scale... the Space Jockey was intended to be 26ft but the Prop was about 16-17ft which would put the Space Jockey at 13-15ft.

Along game the ideas for a Alien Prequel, Spaights gave us a race of 15ft Tall Engineers..... Lindeloffs i think they shrunk down to 12ft...

After shooting Ridley said they was 10ft tall....

But this was another error of scale just as the Space Jockey when using Child Actors at a distance and then Adults up close we got the scale of a 21ft and 15ft Space Jockey.

simple case that had Ridley used the LOTR and Hobbit Trickery to pull off 10ft Engineers then we would have believed it a bit more...

The ships are also slightly different in size and style but i would discus this on the Derelict Deleted Scene thread.

The Door is open for them to have the Engineer and Space Jockey as Two different Races that are connected somehow. Just as Mankind and Engineers are.

As far as the differences, well Ridley had said the Juggernaught was new and in pristine condition where as the Derelict was old and in a derelict state.

But they could also be different models... i will explain in other thread.

But as far as the Space Jockey and Engineers it could be a combination of slightly different look due to Age of the Tech... they are similar but one is a Evolution or newer model..  Just as shown below with Clone/Storm Troopers.

So overtime supple differences could have happened, to their Technology... or again it could be that Technology was borrowed/stolen and reverse engineered?

Overtime our own Suits will evolve... look at the NASA Space Suits of last 50 years and then in 50 years time i think while they may be similar there would be changes.

The other thing to remember is the Space Jockey Suits is dead... we are led to them possessing Bio-Mechanical Suits that are somewhat Organic.... the Prometheus Engineers under pressure suits certainly fit this idea.

The Suit seems to be part Organic, its more like the Skin of a Wale/Dolphin or a Snake... it would be like imagine if we had Boots made from like Snake Skin that instead of being worn like we would Snake Skin Boots.

These Boots then bond to us and becomes part of our skin like the Engineer suit looks.... if we imagine that the Engineers Technology is to some degree Organic like this... then it could surely decay and die over time?


Scified Crashed at this point.........

But to continue, if it is somehow Organic to a degree and if we consider a Cactus that appears to be smooth almost like Dolphin Skin to the touch with Pines, but when it dies it is just a dry husk almost skeletal remains so if we consider the Engineer Suits as a Cactus and Space Jockey the Dead Cactus maybe that gives us a hint to some of the differences... the others are maybe down to a Evolution of design like i showed with the Stormtroopers.

I think the same analogy can apply to the Derelict/Juggernaught... but again there are other differences too.

So yes while we was being led to the Space Jockey and Engineer being the same... we could be shown their are similar races who differ in size, and maybe or most likely not appearance.

Hope the guy from the Derelict never got stuck on the Juggernaut without a suit.  Might be a little snug.

Definitely ;)

One of those..... especially when they was considering him to be 26ft...

But we can see our Engineers can fit down their Corridors etc... but there is no way unless crawling that the Space Jockey could navigate his ships.

Then again as pointed out before by yourself SM the Derelict and Juggernaught are different sizes, the Derelict being nearly half the size. And yet Space Jockey being nearly twice as Tall.

I am kind of hopping that they go the route of the Space Jockey being a relative to the Engineers but higher up in the Hierarchy and taller and that the Derelict is hundreds of years older and our Engineers Stole the Technology or Reverse Engineered it off a Race they had Rebelled against.

HAMMERPEDES! - Welcom to SCIFIED! It is always good to see new faces! Your assertions are quite in line with what I happen to believe - to wit, the Engineers are not entirely the same species as the Space Jockeys. I have long pondered their overall design similarities and contrasts, most notably the fact that the Space Jockey seen in Alien has a much more, hmm, organic and decomposed appearance rather than the look of a suit of armor. At one point in the film, teeth are even visible within the creature' s mouth - not a trait inherent to most helmets. This has been a very engaging conversation. I look forward to any others you might choose to share with us in the future! Once again, welcome to SCIFIED! :)

I think i tried to explain the difference above?

I think ill have another go lol

Maybe the difference in appearance of these is the difference in a Engineer Suit and Space Jockey.

But yes the teeth that is something to consider as it does look like it may have had them.... but when you consider the Arm and Chair they connect to with the Wires they dont look like a Skeleton at all.  More so when you see Gigers concept work for it.

Ridley had said a while ago before Alien 3 even about the Space Jockey being a Suit.

But the idea was based of Giger...

He did have some concepts that led to the Space Jockey and Face Hugers that show similar design and also Bald Humanoids

So it appears these Bald Humanoids are also the ones in the Mural with Masks on, Sacrificing another to the Face Huger.

So maybe the idea all along was a Suit? It seems that they do seem to use Gigers ideas over and over in movies in the Franchise.

Perhaps the engineers have different castes which are bred/designed in different ways, for very specific goals within their society. 

When we first see the robed figure at the start of Prometheus, we see a "pure" example of the Engineer species.

Once the frock is taken off, we see that this humanoid creature is very muscular, and is basically close to perfection in terms of body health.

This seems to be an example of an "engineer" that is very pure from a genetic point of view.

This one was probably bred for perfection, and belongs to a caste that ultimately has the "holy" task of seeding worlds with Engineer related DNA/life.

I imagine these individuals are probably created like this from the get go, their genetic makeup as pure as it can get, without any alterations. These individuals are the chosen ones. The culmination of their evolution as a species. 

The fact that this "faction/caste" also uses very different ships in terms of design is yet another clue that we are actually dealing with a very different sub species.

Now on to the LV-223 installation we find engineers that look like this. 

Now these guys look quite different to me. Instead of wearing a suit which can be taken off, it seems as if the suit itself is seamlessly merged with the body, thus becoming the body.

I think this type of engineer was genetically created to be like this.
It's body genetically altered to seamlessly integrate with certain types of Engineer technology.

So to me it seems very plausible that we in fact are dealing with very different subspecies here. Perhaps the Jockey from Alien is yet another variety, from yet another different caste.

I hope we actually catch a glimpse of Engineer culture in Alien Covenant. I don't want the entire thing explained though !

I too have always been under the Deduction that the Space Jockey & Engineers are two separate races that have had intersecting paths here and there with one another for centuries upon centuries. Whichever side is more bene/male-volent & "Higher-Tier" on the Genetic & overall Intelligence scale is still up to Sir Ridley to decide. For the fact that the SJ's are supposed to be more gargantuan & have had Xeno Eggs for 1,000+ Years (as is the case for the Derelict Cargo Hold), I'm leaning more towards SJ's being the Race to come out above the Engineers. But yess there is a Race even greater than both of them whom are the REAL String Pullers & want total Conquest & Rule over Everything (Elders?) ^_^

I think Ridley frustratingly and quite cleverly further shrouded the SJ lore by deliberately contradicting it.

Prometheus has visual clues that suggest a much bigger race than the Engineers, most notably David needing a ladder to open the Ampule room.

I don't think anyone is asking that we discount the classic SJ, but possibly we are being teased to try to reconcile the differences?

Edit: Maybe left dormant the Juggernaut keeps growing, like a tumor. 

Aorta

Edit: Maybe left dormant the Juggernaut keeps growing, like a tumor.

Who knows ?? This might actually be the case.
The ship at least seems part organic. Might it actually be some kind of sentient lifeform (Like Moya in Farscape), or like the LV-223 Engineers be part organic part machine ?

The buttons are squishy like a cross between jelly and a hard boiled egg. The inner structure looks more like a skeleton and less like an artificial hull. In order to activate certain consoles the Engineer has to use a flute to create a tune to which the ship responds. Its all quite strange and alien to us earthlings used to mechenical devices and electronics. 

This is just a random idea that I have, either they (the Space Jockey and Engineers) are:

1. Two different but related species like a cat and a panther are

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2. They are of the same family but they have two different tasks in the Engineer society. Let's say that one flies a military ship and the other one is flying ships with cargos. By this they are related but are not the same.

Hopefully I am making some sense in this post but if I am not then maybe I am not writing this good enough in order for people to understand it.

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@Charza, I really like your idea of the Engineers being genetically modified at birth for different purposes. It really would fit the concept of God creating minions specific to certain tasks. Engineers being a significantly older version Human beings, perhaps they lacked the genetic "freedom" us Humans have come to evolve? Perhaps that is why they seem to lack any definitive sexuality or gender. Maybe us Humans were created by them to further their own species and to attempt to break away from the shackles their creator put on them? So much to contemplate.

But, I really like how you pointed out the Bio-suits almost seem fused to the body - as if they are part of the ship and only purpose is to power / help grow the technology present within it.

The idea of the ships being somewhat organic, visually do make sense. Whether it actually grows or not? It's a fascinating concept and perhaps it's true - but the chamber the Juggernaut rested in looked like it could only grow a fraction more before running out of room. Could that chamber have been alone kind of incubator? Was the Pyramid a means of "feeding" the dormant ship and it's crew? Hmmmm....

"Maybe left dormant the Juggernaut keeps growing, like a tumor. "

It didn't seem to grow internally.

HAMMERPEDES! - You are most welcome! :)

The idea of white bald humanoids and ancient aliens was floating around at that time of creation of the very first alien movie and Giger did alot of concept arts of them,there was even a large mural showing those white humanoids wearing the SJ suits that was shot inside the derelict but was deleted probably because it would reveal too much of the plot and the audience would know what would happen next when the nostromo encounters the eggs.Ridley saved all that for later and revised 30 years later for Prometheus.

During the production of prometheus they were going to actually have a 15'+ tall race,like in this image that I found on blu-ray special features disk:

(Sorry for potato quality)

If my calculation is correct,the engineer in this image is 18'11'' or 576cm

However in this next image,wich I think is the same as above,the engineer seems to be 10'0'' or 304 cm.

The reason why the engineers are much smaller than the SJ is because Ridley wanted to focus less on CGI (or it would be too complicated and too expensive to actually have a motherf*****g 15 feet tall giant walking around).

The actors who played the engineers in the movie were over 7' tall,the tallest actor on the set was John Lebar if im not mistaken who was 7'3'' or 221 cm.The actor who played the last engineer (Ian Whyte) was 7'1'' or 216 cm.

People from the production did say that the engineers on that set are 9-10 feet tall.

And there was also a suit that was standing on the corridor of the chamber room in prometheus wich looks 9-10 feet tall to me.

In my opinion, 10 feet would be tall enough for the engineers to fit the SJ from the first alien,they just need to make them way more muscular

Dark Nebula....

Nice points.... i covered similar a long time ago, where i was pointing out that people dont even realize how tall 10ft or 15ft would be...

Verne Troyer (Mini Me) is actually 45% the Height of a average Male.... if we applied the same difference (average 2.2X) to the Average Male we would get a height of 12Ft 10"

The difference between Troyer and Myers in % would be the same as if we consider Troyer in the above image to be say 5ft10" then it would make Myers 12ft 5"

So we can see where the Illusion of Scale was lost in Prometheus, but the Concept work and idea in Drafts was for them to be 12-15ft tall and that was revised to 9-10ft  for the Movie... we are suppose to believe our LV-223 Engineers are 9-10ft when those with a keen eye could only get the Illusion of 8ft tops.

As far as the comment about being Chosen, that is most definitely perhaps true...

If we was to seed our DNA into storage so that we can clone Humans in future, in case of a Catastrophe if we also wanted to go and Colonize a new World then a ship that contains  Fertilized Eggs would be ideal

If we was indeed to do this, then logically the Scientists behind this kind of Mission would Chose the Most closer to Perfection Humans for DNA or Fertilized Eggs...  we would look to re-create a new Human Race using the best Genetics we can find.

And so its most likely the Engineers do the same..

We have had discussion about the Engineers being Clones, i think they are created Genetically for a Purpose and Similar but i would not think they are 100% Clones as far as Duplicates....  Even if we ignore the Elders Scene.

The LV-223 Engineers (Whyte and Lebar) did not appear to have the same sense of Perfection as the Sacrificial Engineer (Twiss) did.

I think the Engineers have strong genetic traits, like some Creeds/Races on Earth do...... Humans are not all the same... if you took 500 Males and 500 Females and then shaved the hair or cut it short to them all.

Then you got these 1000 Humans from every Race..

so 1000 Caucasians, 1000 Asian (Orientals) 1000 Africans   Then you would see more variety with the Caucasians... but Africans or even if we look at Aboriginal Australians then there is less variety because of the Strong Genetic Traits of that Race of Humans.

I feel this is the case with the Engineers, while maybe not Clones, i think they all have a similar Genetic Looks.

But even so, they would chose the most Genetically Perfect of their kind for the Sacrificial Roles.