Paradise lost

From wikipedia...

The poem concerns the Biblical story of the Fall of Man: the temptation of Adam and Eve by the fallen angel Satan and their expulsion from the Garden of Eden. Milton's purpose, stated in Book I, is to "justify the ways of God to men"

So, is the first Engineer in 'Prometheus' a good "angel" and the one we meet at the end who rips off David's head is a bad or fallen "angel" and when Shaw is tempted by what she finds on LV-223 to travel to "Paradise", she and David bring on the "fall of man" with what they discover and interfere with on the Engineer planet?  Don't know, but it's fun to speculate.

Ridley seems to be loosely connecting this poem but also i think that Originally the links to Ancient Cultures i.e Star Maps was not by Accident in the context of the Movie, those Cave Paintings and other Star Maps are never all just Coinsidence and depictions by Ancient mankind that are not connected to the Engineers...

The Prometheus Myth is also loosely connected.... and i think as far as the Bible goes, its the variation of the story told by Milton that they are loosely following....

What position do the Engineers play?  Ridley refered to then as Fallen Angels... and if we read into this then we can only really Draw Two Conclusions......

1) That he means they are considered Evil beings as far as intentions of Mankind and so are alike Fallen Angels and Demons in that manner. He refered to then as being Agressive and Nasty SOB's well comments to those lines... and he also said they are far from Benevolent as far as the beings Shaw and David Find.

2) That he means the Engineers on LV 223 where as above, but maybe also to bring in why they are Fallen as in context of the Bible... which means they are a Rebelious Faction of Engineers whos Intentions and Agenda is Malicious towards Mankind... or that they have their own Agenda for us, that is not the Agenda maybe of the other Faction...

Ridley did hint that the Sacrificial Scene showed Benevolence...  which could be the intentions of the Scene and Elders/Engineers but then something changed their minds...? or maybe just the minds of the Fallen.

But there could also be connections to Prometheus Myth... the movie is so Ambigious that we can try and fit in the Bible and Greek Mythos or others and come up with many different outcomes.... like the Frescos in Prometheus.. i made  a Topic on this... and it could represent the Adam and God Fresco... i.e Creator and Creation.... but it could also fit in with the Prometheus tied to a rock punishment Fresco... and to me  the Fresco as far as poses looks more like this.... and fits in with a Punishment handed to a Engineer for maybe doing stuff that he should not have..

But the movie can go in anyway to be honest... maybe there has been few U-Turns....

Rappace hinted that the next Movie they would meet God or the Devil..... Ridley had said that they never wanted to meet God in the first movie, shortly after Prometheus was out... so our Engineers can not be God... and futher comments he has made all seem to hint at the Engineers being a subservent Race to some other Race or Bieng.... or something else...

His latest comments talk about who was behind not only creation of Life and Evil Biology but he hinted that Millions of Plannets could be in the Right Goldylocks Zone as far as being able to support Life... and this is no Accident or set of Natural Circumstances... i.e No Big Bang.... and Ponders who is the Big Guy behind all this...  GOD?

He then goes on about one set of beings that are attractive but evil and go around having all the fun, getting all the girls.. while the other is not as attractive and is boring and stays at home...

This was in relation to Paradise Lost..... and so the one who stays at Home, means a Bieng/God or Race of Biengs/Gods that maybe play a massive role in Creation of Things, and maybe has a Benevolent intention?

Then we have another set of Gods/Biengs who may not be the same as the Big Guy or Guys... another Race maybe who go around doing things with creation that is against the Agenda and Intentions of the others on the Homeworld... a Faction or Race created by these Gods on Paradise... who basically took it upon themselves to play as Gods and create or Corrupt Creation..... 

The gets all the Girls Comments could just be a loose Metaphor for a group who are behaving in a bad way.... that is unruly compared to those who stay at home.... but i guess it could also have some loose literal connection...  Maybe could go the route that this Faction of Beings and Gods could have maybe favoured Females... maybe Human Females and so we could losely be looking at the Nephilim which is one of the Actions that Corrupted the Blood of Mankind and caused God to take out his Wrath on Mankind and the Abominations but to save a few with Pure Blood and who are subservent... and not rebelious...

"Membrane

Member
294 Posts
Posted Sep-30-2015 7:13 AM

From wikipedia...

The poem concerns the Biblical story of the Fall of Man: the temptation of Adam and Eve by the fallen angel Satan and their expulsion from the Garden of Eden. Milton's purpose, stated in Book I, is to "justify the ways of God to men"

So, is the first Engineer in 'Prometheus' a good "angel" and the one we meet at the end who rips off David's head is a bad or fallen "angel" and when Shaw is tempted by what she finds on LV-223 to travel to "Paradise", she and David bring on the "fall of man" with what they discover and interfere with on the Engineer planet?  Don't know, but it's fun to speculate."

it's alot simpler than that. after thinking about the movie more and reading the tidbits that ridley said it's this:

God ceates the universe

God creates the universe as an eternal entity

Satan Rebels

Satan brings death into the universe

God sends his angels to have a presence in the compromised universe and do his work/battle satan

Engineers create Xenomorphs to aid them against satan

This goes wrong

The black goo is intended to upgrade man: the resurrection body

meanwhile:

Man becomes more and more naively knowledgeable 

Given that the universe is compromised by satan, David then, the peak of knowledge and human cretion is a vessel of satan, hence why the engineer rips david's head off.

at least that's how i'm now interpreting it.

Yes there is definitely the naked engineer and the covered in black xeno type stuff engineer. But Ridley says something along the lines of 150 million years our so have passed between the two the space craft changing a bit too. In the directors commentary. Which was one of the bits that actually scared me because think about how much we can do now and what we can do say 50 years as we become more advanced so the adultery to change increases genetic manipulation etc. So what the hell kept the engineers from changing i hope is explained and not just a naive thought process...

@THANATOS_CONTAGION

I think we shall be loosely seeing something fit in with Paradise Lost... but what and how we cant be sure, it could be very loosely and maybe we cant be drawn into too Many Literal References... But yeah there is something that must have gone down as far as a War and Rebelion and our Engineers are not Gods..... i think at the very least we are to be shown Rebelion and Punishment as a Theme of the Franchise... Prometheus has shown us this in a way, hints are that Mankind had disfavoured, and Rebelled against the Engineers and we had not turned out the way they intended and also we was doing things they had not itended.....  We see David shows signs of this against his Creator Weyland and Mankind, as David was created to Serve Mankind... we see signs of him seeing this role as unfavorable as though he Questions why he should serve Mankind, when he views himself as superior which he is.....  We see David seems to have more Freewill than you would expect a Robot to be given... his comments throughout the movie shows us that he sees himself as not a servant to Mankind and not even equal but greater.

If we are to take David 8 and how he is becoming and look at this on the bigger whole as far as many David 8's... we could be left with a situation like I-Robot or even Terminator Movies... where David 8 models can see themselves as superior to mankind and to then Rebel against our authority and control of them.....  what would be the next step for Mankind the creators of these intended servant Androids...... that would be to destroy their creation before it got out of hand... just as we see in I-Robot and Terminator...

This does not end with David or even Start with him... move up the lader and its Mankind who replaces David and Mankind who is against the authority and control of the Engineers..... but it may not end there.... i think we then come to the Engineers who did likewise to their Creators and who knows how many levels of this Creator/Creation Rebelion we will see.... seems what the movie is showing us...

Also what the source who leaked some stuff to me said was one of the subjects they are looking at....

@THANATOS_CONTAGION

Cont.......

Yes some interesting ideas of whats going on and i think you maybe somewhere in the right ball park, just how close to the details is unkown.... but the broad stokes yes looks a plausible scenerio...

Lets break down what Ridley has said in the order of what you said.....

GOD

There has to be a God, or Gods, a Race or Biengs or even Machines? Something that is the Top of the Hierarchy but is this a single Presence? Or multiple... we cant be sure as Ridleys comments do differ on the matter....  But indeed his latest comments he poses the Question, of the Universe that its maybe no Accident or what if the Big Bang is not whats going on.... and that while we see the Engineers used in creation process.. he ponders how is it that Worlds like Earth are in the right place the right circumstances and terraformed in the right way that they can support life.... Is this purely Coinsidence?  a one off Fluke... nope.. he claims there are many Worlds like Earth and we have to ask who is behind the circumstances that allow such Worlds to be such ideal places to sustain life in the first place.... Whos the Big Guy behind it all as Ridley said...... this could imply a single figure at the head of the Hierarchy thats one Powerful Being... very Godlike.... but i hope we dont go the route of a Magical Being as in the Bible....

But he did go onto say in other comments.... they never wanted to meet God in the first movie (again maybe a single being is God?)  But then he says that Shaw and David will meet God in the next movie, but these Gods are not God in the traditional Sense... but they are not very Benevolent..... this could show us that in context of how there Agenda is compared to us, they could be seen as Malicious but maybe they are not... it could be just as the way we would treat a Chicken or Cattle or a Lamb or Pigs....  do we consider that because we use them for Food, that we are EVIL?  If these Animals had more intelligence you could consider that to them we are not Benevolent to them... but as far as our Agenda and how we see them, they are insignificant... just as Mankind could be to these Gods or God they find on Paradise...

Ridley mentioned lately about one bieng who is not as attractive who is boring and who sits at home... this could be reference to a God or Gods... who are not inherently EVIL.

GODS CREATION OF THE UNIVERSE....

Ridley seems to hint that who ever is at the top of the Hierarchy plays a more hands on role as to Everything in the Galaxy and Universe as opposed to a more linear role/effect as our Engineers seemed to have.

SATAN

Ridley had refered to the Engineers we saw on LV 223 as Fallen Angels... like Satan was, maybe their is or was a head Engineer who represented Satan.... or maybe in general our Engineers are Satan.... maybe Satan in context of the Franchise is a being who created the Engineers?  or are there 2 factions of Engineers... Angels and Fallen Angels... Ridley had hinted that the Sacrifical Scene was a Benevolent Event..... so those at the start where Good Guys or had less malicious intentions....

Ridley futher highlighted this by saying maybe God is the Devil... Rappace said that she looks forwards to the next movie where they would finally Meet God... or the Devil.... i think again Rebelion plays key in this... and links to Paradise Lost are as so... also we could see this as Prometheus... as he had to a degree Rebelled against the Gods... but then Rebelion was a constant theme within the Greek Mythos not only as far as Zues being hidden from Cronus as Cronus was afraid he would be overruled by his Children.... Cronus own Parent (Uranus) had met first hand Rebelion of his own Son Cronus and Cronus was always concerned his own Children would do the same to him.

As far as bringing Death.... im not so sure it depends how you view Satan.... he is sometimes portrayed as Evil, and Wicked... when in reality he is maybe no wicked than Zues to his father, or Cronus to his... and so indeed like David.... Satan has Parallels with Prometheus and Enki.... in that they pass on knowledge to Gods creation Mankind against the will of God.... Satan does not see why God is so superior to himself.... he sees himself as Equal or greater just as David does with Weyland....  Satan is then upset that he could not overpower God, and that God then has a favoured Children.... so Satan sets out to corupt all that God created as he knows this would upset God and be act of Revenge... but in doing so Satan/Prometheus Enki set out to free Mankind of the bondage to serve every Gods World just as Satan himself has saw fit to do...

Death could be a result, maybe as Gods punishment... but i think Satans aim in the context of it all, was to go and oppose God and corupt all God creates in the Universe... for what reason?  Who knows.

ANGELS

Yes we could see a faction of Engineers, or even if the Fallen Angels are not the Engineers but creators of them... then maybe while we can have a Fallen/Rebelious Section of Beings, who are against Gods plans, we could have a faction that are Loyal to his Plans...  And a War between sides is something very likely...

We can not be sure however if these Angels and God are actually the ones who are Good... i bring you to the comparison of how Mankind view Livestock...... and what is the role of say Animal Rights Activists who freed some of these Animals... this action is against the Agenda and Will and Benefit of the Farmers etc who are using the Life Stock for this purpose... does this mean they are EVIL?  if not does it mean the Animal Activists who wish to interfere and prevent this are EVIL and a burden to Mankinds Survival?

"

Engineers create Xenomorphs to aid them against satan

This goes wrong

The black goo is intended to upgrade man: the resurrection body"

This is the tricky part... we cant be sure how or who created the Xeno or its Origins and Purpose.... Ridley has now concreatly said that either Engineers... or who ever is above them that created the Xeno, as use as a Weapon of Punishment....  his other comments sugest that the Xeno is something thats always been a Bio Weapon... or something that could clean up Worlds... so its vague as to really what the purpose was... When he then sugests the Xeno as in some Evil Bacteria and Evil Biology.. this could bring us to the case that the Xeno is a by product created by experiments on this Evil Biology.... (Black Goo) how this plays is anyones Guess... it could be one of the Judgements poured out by the Angels.... it could be Pandoras Box....  Loosely...

It could even be a Punishment sent to Punish the wayward Engineers or their creators... much like the Eagle sent to punish Prometheus.... or maybe as far as Paradise Lost... the turning of the Fallen Angels into Serpents..... what if doing this however backfired for God? or in Context of Prometheus and making a connection to the movie... what if a Punishment was sent to those Rebelious Engineers but the Engineers then experimented on them to create  Weapon to then use against God and then his creations..... or could the Prometheus Fresco show indeed Engineers being changed into something New.....  we just cant be sure... this is one subject that is very open...

Ridley before his latest comments did say the Xeno and Evil Biology was created by the Engineers, to protect themselves but from who..... does he mean Mankind? or could he mean who ever the Engineers rebelled against?

Its very open to debate and very Ambigious... the Xeno Creation and Intention and Agenda.. i.e who created them, or the Biology that gave birth to them,... which side did this and why.... we cant point out which side created them... or even if one side created the Biology but another then used it to create something else...

@djamelameziane

Ridley said after Prometheus came out that the Engineers Technology and that behind those ships is maybe Millions of years old...... its how you iterpret this... are the Juggernaughts Millions of years old? this does not mean the Derelict was there for Millions of years but the ships could be Millions of years old..... or he could have been on about the other Ship at the Sacrificial Scene...

The 150 Million year difference could be the difference between the Juggernaughts and the Teardrop shaped craft at the start of the movie.... it appeared the Sacrificial Engineers lacked any Giger Bio-Mechanical Look or Technology so this Giger Matter Bio-Tech could be something obtained a long time after the Sacrifical Scene.... This Scene has no date.. is it even Earth?  If it was and it appears to show the start of Evolution either as the Start of Building Blocks... or the Catalyst that kickstarts Basic Life to Evolve to complex Life...

If these are the case... and same process happend on Earth... this process would be about a Billion Years Ago.

Therefore there could be a point.. where the Engineers had obtained Bio-Tech, the Juggernaught, the Pressure Suits the Space Jockey and the whole Design aesthetic of the LV 223 Temple and Ship etc do have a similar look to the Xenomorph and its Hives they share in a way some Giger DNA..... how, when and why is what i want to know...

And if the Engineers/Elders at the Sacrifical Scene did not have this, but they did have the Goo (seems different) then when and how did this change... and is the Giger DNA Engineers and Ships and Xeno all connected and relates to the Fallen Engineers....  could it be a Curse placed on them by the other Faction and God.... that they turned around to their own benefit?

BIGDAVE:

i think th eidea that the black goo reacts to the presence of sin is what i'm going with in my theories, now, if you think that the black goo reacts with anything in the soil, which is where the dead lay, then i think it is intended for that. what is our landscape, what do we mean when we say the word 'place' the place we are born, the place where we die. i honestly now think that the engineers there might be working with good intentions. i could be entirely wrong about this, but i think that installation on LV was for the preparations of eternity in the universe. I think that the black goo is intended to completely remove sin, but the process is obviously very intricate and complex with very specific parameters, that's why david abuses it and uses it in a way which brings death and destruction. david is definitely a bad guy in all this, and i truly believe that he is satan's vessel.as for the xenomorph, again, ambiguous, a CONTINGENT life form in the universe, neitehr good or bad, but a pawn to be used by either side accordingly.

like i said before, i could be entirely wrong about all this though!

For me I think the goo reacts to life forms. Possibly more for humans maybe like when they enter the sealed room. But I am more of the goo is possibly the same as the one the sacrificial engineer takes at the start so as we can see for some it s a creative tool for most a chaotic tool unmanageable. I think possibly the sacrificial engineer was highly trained mentally maybe for a long time that is why he was able to seed life in such a way the ones later on were not prepared we also see how the humans and insects reacted with it as well. But sin could come into it I can see that more religious side being a possibility now...I think it may be a crowd puller keeping the religious theme heavily involved in it.

And yes the gap is 150 million years between the ships and life on earth was 3.5 billion years ago though weather the engineers start life or guide it might be debatable...

hmmm cant edit posts still so heres a white one hopfully!:

For me I think the goo reacts to life forms. Possibly more for humans maybe like when they enter the sealed room. But I am more of the goo is possibly the same as the one the sacrificial engineer takes at the start so as we can see for some it s a creative tool for most a chaotic tool unmanageable. I think possibly the sacrificial engineer was highly trained mentally maybe for a long time that is why he was able to seed life in such a way the ones later on were not prepared we also see how the humans and insects reacted with it as well. But sin could come into it I can see that more religious side being a possibility now...I think it may be a crowd puller keeping the religious theme heavily involved in it.

And yes the gap is 150 million years between the ships and life on earth was 3.5 billion years ago though weather the engineers start life or guide it might be debatable...

Well the next movie i think its aimed at the purpose of the Goo but at the very least its purpose in what it created on LV 223...

Its open to debate how the Goo Worked... but my theory was that the stuff in the Urns was not the same as the start but rather the result of what happens after the Goo at the start is used.....  we see our Enginees DNA is broken down and falls into the Water Fall, what if his broken down Material was collected instead i.e he took the substance in a giant bath or VAT and the contents was then collected and stored in Jars... surely if we then placed that contents into the Water the same effect would happen.... Thus the Urns contain broken down DNA etc of something they Sacrficed related to the Xeno.... this was my take, i had gone into this in detail many times and it seems a extreamly likely case... that when you then take how Spaights Nano Scarabs work then it FITS PERFECTLY

However they seemed to have done a U-Turn on a lot of things they had started with and this is maybe why we saw so many scenes cut and deleted and edited etc.... and other stuff not used....

The source who i spoken to said that the Goo is now just the base Tool to create life, but is more than just a Tool that created life, he said it is EVERYTHING! and it relates to both Stolen Fire and Fruit from the Tree of Life. so yes maybe THANATOS_CONTAGION your theory now could even if loosely play a part.