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Scientific inconsistencies from a Prometheus fan who is also a scientist

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nostromo001

MemberOvomorphJanuary 02, 2013
Normally I have nothing but good things to say about Prometheus and I consider it one of the best movies to come out in a long while. However I have in the past alluded to some of the scientific flaws and nonscientific behaviors of the so called hand picked scientific crew of the Prometheus. I believe that Ridley Scott and his team need to hire people like myself who are trained PhD scientists to act as technical support so as to prevent such obvious errors from taking place in an otherwise excellent movie. Now mind you there are a couple of errors in this video such as the carbon dating device, which we have already gone over. It was not a Carbon 14 device, it only was referred to as a carbon dating device, so other than a few errors already addressed here, there is much that is correct about the anti-scientific aspects of Prometheus that they bring up. While I do love Prometheus and disagree with their assessments of the characters to some degree, as I did find Shaw and David, Janek and Vickers compelling, what these guys say about the other characters like Fifield and Melburn totally make sense. Anyway hopefully this will link. [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osBFSuTRTqk&feature=player_detailpage]link[/url] I also placed this link in another location before I learned how to remove a post that I wanted to edit out of existence and couldn't so I just put a similar one with the same link there. Anyway let me know what you guys think.
[img]http://0.tqn.com/d/chemistry/1/0/E/1/1/chemistry-glassware.jpg[/img]
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javablue
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Good thread. @corpo Leaps of faith do not have a place in science. Hypotheses are formed on evidence, observation and developed by deductive reasoning not on whimsy. Your examples of Wegener and co may be a big hit on fundy sites but they're falsehoods - sorry, but there's no other way to say it. Wegener was not the first to have this idea - it can be traced back to the 16th Century - and he had observed correlations and was able to come up with a what if argument. What he didn't have was mechanism. This is very common in science - waiting for new evidence and or technology to catch up. The concept of evolution was around long before Darwin - his grandfather thought animals evolved - but Darwin came up with the mechanism. And nobody took Shaw on about her "I choose to believe" fluff - there's was a cut to David looking embarrassed (or more likely guilty) and then we jump into the next scene. It was never mentioned again (except by Shaw several times). And she only admitted she was wrong (again we get no reason) following her traumatic experience - at the end of the movie she's back on track with the "they made us" line. Shaw's line was a puke moment - the point is why did Ridley and the writers (who were no doubt aware it was a puke moment) decide to do it that way. By fobbing it off as poor writing or even worse, trying to argue it's good science, we're never going to get any answers. Here's one episode you may not have noticed: during the landing Ford says something like big mountain "port" side. And then she looks right. Try and tell me that Ridley's not taking the piss. I thought the scientist guys did ok but they missed a lot.
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BLANDCorporatio
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"Fundy sites"?! I assure you I thought of those examples on my own. And I chose, for example Continental Drift, for a reason. It was rejected, and rationally so, by the geological community, at the time of its proposal. There was not enough evidence at the time to indicate that it worked, so a reasonable person was quite entitled to disagree. The evidence came later. And that is fine. A hypothesis, pretty much by definition, is not supposed to be air-tight in its confirmation by evidence. If you have a hunch, possibly based on some prior data, it's all right to follow it and see if new evidence turns up. In this particular case, Shaw had a hunch. Somehow she convinced an old rich guy with more money than sense to fund a fact checking mission. Seems legit to me.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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nostromo001
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BlandC, Shaw was able to convince Weyland because he was too old that he would have agreed with anyone who could potentially come up with a solution to his aging problem. The man just did not want to die!
[img]http://0.tqn.com/d/chemistry/1/0/E/1/1/chemistry-glassware.jpg[/img]
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javablue
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Yes, it perfectly legit for a B grade movie for 13 year olds. You should have more faith.
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coldlogic
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BLANDCorporation,

the problem with Shaw's 'believe' line isn't that she has a hypothesis. They come and go, and as you've pointed out there are many cases in the past where a hypothesis was untenable at the time (because of, say, a lack of compelling evidence) but was later vindicated as accurate once the science had caught up. The principles of isotropy and homogeneity in cosmology, for instance, were put forward and declared 'principles' before we really had good reason to believe them (now, of course, we have good reason to believe them). Likewise, Darwin proposed natural selection as the explanation for complexity without having a good mechanism for it (he famously didn’t know about genes).

So the problem with Shaw's line isn't that she has a hypothesis awaiting evidence that either falsifies or fails to disconfirm it. The problem is that she, and for that matter the movie as a whole, characterizes the scientific enterprise as a matter of faith. She 'chooses to believe' her hypothesis. Presumably biologists 'choose to believe' natural selection and physicists 'choose to believe' the atomic theory. And they 'choose to believe' these things the way someone 'chooses to believe' in heaven.

Now it's true in a trivial sense that we 'choose to believe' by faith in some of the things we believe (eg, I have faith that the educated physicists working at CERN know what they are talking about when they talk about this stuff, so I'm going to assume the consensus among them re: atoms is more or less accurate). But that's only in a very mundane sense, and it's really only applicable to when we believe things that are outside our field of expertise. It's not the epistemological case that should and would be made by someone working in their field. For example, if you asked Einstein why he thought he could overturn centuries of Newtonian gravity, his answer probably wouldn't be 'because I choose to believe gravity works this way the way that some people choose to believe in heaven.' But that's exactly what Shaw says (and by 'exactly', I mean 'pretty much', really). Shaw has evidence that the movie implies is strongly suggestive of her hypothesis, yet she says it's faith that guides her.

I don't think this is an example of a knee-jerk reaction to the portrayal of a character who is both a scientist and religious (which is what I take you to mean earlier when you talked about knee-jerk reactions to anything less than pure scientism?). What it is is a reaction to a character that has almost no nuance at all. She has faith (in what? We don't know. We're to assume some kind of Christianity I guess). Her scientific hypotheses are somehow the product of that faith rather than suggested by evidence (that's the point of her repeating the 'choose to believe' line that her father used earlier to explain why he believes in heaven, right?). The other scientists believe in -isms like 'Darwinism', and the clash between Shaw's hypothesis and quote 'Darwinism' is ideological, not evidentiary.

Now, it's TOTALLY true that clashes between paradigms have a lot less to do with evidence and more to do with the resistance of an established ideology to change. But I don't think that's the case here, with this scene. I don’t think whoever wrote this scene has read up on, eg, Kuhn and paradigm shifts. Why? Because subscribers to the old paradigm and the new paradigm, on Kuhn’s account, don’t push their paradigms by faith! In fact, there aren’t any accounts I can think of in the philosophy of science or the philosophy of epistemology in which ‘belief in heaven’ and ‘belief in [hypothesis x]’ are driven by the same kind of epistemic criteria. Maxwell didn’t push his (now known to be false) theory of light because of faith; nor was his theory overturned because of it. The consensus surrounding continental drift, both for and against, didn’t change because of peoples’ faith. Likewise, the acceptance of common decent through natural selection.

We’ve had centuries of philosophers dedicating themselves to thinking about epistemology (What constitutes knowledge as distinct from mere beliefs? What constitutes ‘evidence’? What’s the difference between a theory and a model, and what role do they each play in our explanations and predictions?). We shouldn’t expect a layman audience to be hip to the various battles waged in various camps of the epistemology department. But we SHOULD expect a scientist 200 years in the future to at least be familiar with at least some of the epistemic grounds that underpin the philosophy of science, given that a) most scientists today seem to be very aware of those grounds and b) the literature is exploding thanks to the epistemic questions that the cutting edge of physics is raising (eg, ‘what constitutes a theory?’). We don't get any of that nuance in this scene.

Now, what I said above about there being virtually no epistemological accounts under which science proceeds by ‘faith’… that’s not exactly true, if you are very generous with what you’d call an ‘epistemological account’. I’ve noticed that one primary tactic of fundamentalist religious organizations (Answers in Genesis, for one) is to claim that creationists and naturalist both look at the same evidence but interpret it differently based on their pre-theoretical inclinations. In other words, the reason scientists and creationists differ in their explanations of the geological column is because they each hold ideological commitments that drive their interpretations; it’s all faith, and both approaches are equally legit, they’d have you believe.

And that’s not nuance with regards to epistemology. It’s just the tired old ‘science is a religion too!’ argument, which has about as un-nuanced a set a conceptions about faith, belief, knowledge and theory as one can have! Interestingly, these are also the kinds of circles one is most likely to encounter the term ‘Darwinism’, ‘Evolutionists’, and their derivatives. Creationists use these kinds of terms to cast the modern theory of evolution as some kind of ideological –ism. I would not expect a biologist in 2200 to call it that. I WOULD expect a shallow writer in 2012 to call it that, particularly if he’s setting up a ‘science is a religion too!’ idea.

As mentioned in other reviews, this movie pretends to explore Big Questions, but all it really does is ask some old, tired questions and never explores them. Science vs religion could be interesting. Man’s place in the universe, likewise. This movie doesn’t ask those questions. It just gives us a ‘scientist’ who believes whatever she believes because of faith; it gives us a biologist who subscribes to –isms instead of theories; it gives us ‘I have faith!’ and pretends that merely giving us that is itself an exploration of faith, meaning or whatever. It pays lip service to deep existential wonderings but doesn’t actually do any existential wondering.

So tl;dr – whoever wrote the scene thinks that science is some kind of faith, doesn't know much about the scientific and epistemic enterprises, and thinks that merely having a scientist character who is a believer is enough to count as ‘exploring the Big Questions of faith and science’.

 

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