VOTE on the FINAL Canon Debate

original Alien xenomorph as a lone vampyre-like transmutative sex maniac is THE ONLY CANON worth wielding, imho. Everything else, especially that canon-breaking Queen in Aliens ISN'T.

I'm asking for a vote on the two positions above and that's it....Please, people, read the material and vote for choice A or B.

Woah, Hold on a second here, no offence bud, but just because you feel the debate is over doesn't mean that myself, those in support or those against do.

I'm not saying it's over. Sorry if you felt that's what I was saying. I'm just trying to get a sense of where other people are on this, because I feel like you and I are just parroting the same stuff back and forth, over and over again. I'm just trying to bring new blood into the fray. Again friend, sorry if you misunderstood as that was not my intention. I just figuredf that a new thread would organize the voting process. That's all.

What I understood from Snorks posts is that there might be a possibility AVP is canon based on some clues left in both franchises. He never pushed the subject further than speculation. I certainly never read anything about Peter being vain or the like. @FreePlanet; O_o... Sex maniac?? What movie did you watch??

Svanya, this one, and the [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA_7XI5Haqg]ORIGINAL GIGER IMAGERY[/url]. [img]http://maxcdn.fooyoh.com/files/attach/images/1068/289/761/alien.jpg[/img] What film did you watch? And the phallic nature of the Alien head itself? And the face-raping face-hugger? And the labia-majora-like egg opening. And the porn mag shoved down Ripley's throat? Remember, in the same scene, above, the shot of Xeno's second mouth softly sliming out of its gaping mouth, feigning snake-tasting sexual allure? And the delicious TAIL BETWEEN THE LEGS death scene of Brent (was it?) Was there anything more sexually possessive as several of the scenes in Alien? [img]http://i.imgur.com/y7qVM.jpg[/img] Even the death of the males where they 'got their brains f***ed out' by xeno's skull-ly penetration. What film, indeed?

as mentioned in the thread of mine to which you link... [i]A poll will bring out the majority of those that are against the idea, and just serve this debate no favors.[/i]

for me, AVP was a great little film that explored a parallel aspect of the whole ALIEN canon, much in the same way that Prometheus wasn't really an Alien prequel, or in any way related (apart from a Stolen Juggernaut and back-engineered Space Jockey chair).

AVP IS NOT ALIEN(s) CANON! sorry folks, wishful thinking does not make an exploitation attempt on both the Alien and Predator franchises, canon material. You can see it as you please, by all means, but there are no Preds in the Aliens movies, thus, Predators do not belong in that movie Universe. Furthermore watch the alien movies again and point a Pred there, or even a "hint" I'll help you: [url=http://www.prometheus-movie.com/community/forums/topic/9366]NO PREDATORS IN ALIEN MOVIES[/url]

I am going to say b) And for starters i dont think that AVP movies intended to be canon to Alien etc. I agree that AVP could be canon to Predator movies, but not the Alien ones. And i think the biggest reason for Peter Weyland is simple.... Ridley does not see AVP as Canon and by creating the founder as Peter Weyland it therefore in the context of Alien and Prometheus means that Charles Bishop is not the founder and thus rules out AVP as canon. Off course this whole discussion is with the fans as i dont think any of the Alien movies and Prometheus have ever tried to hint or connect any connection between Alien Xenos and Predators. The big question is how does Alien 3 now become canon to Alien and Prometheus? Because Weyland had no sons and Vickers is gone, so how do we get to Charles Bishop unless Peter has a brother and its that line that then succeeds and runs Weyland Industries.

@ Big dave... Weyland corporation and Weyland Industries first appeared in AVP. And the character you refer to from Alien 3 was not called Charles Bishop, or even Michael Bishop, he was referred to, in the movies credits as Bishop II

A [b]NO ALIENS IN TESCO[/b] http://youtu.be/yHZBh1mXBAw

in Short: [b]B[/b]

After following the "final canon" debate for a while, I backed off because its a debate that in its very nature is based on speculation and opinion...no solid answer can be made at this point in the franchise. Snorks thread clearly asked that if anyone can provide real solid proof that avp is not canon, than please do so....No one can. Everyone can argue their "opinion" though... Alienamberclad made a good point in snorks thread where he pointed out that writers and directors are not going to deliberately contradict other writers material....Its not good for business. I vote A and good luck with the rest of the vote. FYI My girlfriend is working late, so I just raided the "upcoming zombie apocalypse" cabinet in the kitchen and ate 2 cans of beefaroni....doesnt taste the same as it did when I was a kid.

@FreePlanet; I am well aware of the sexual undertones of the movie and the artwork, however it still doesn't define the Alien and a sex maniac...

yeah, I dont know about the whole sex maniac thing...undertones yes, it is a giger creation after all.

What in the hell is this "Alien vs. Predator" thing? *wink*

B. I tend to think of AR and the AVP's sorta like the old Marvel Comics "What If..." series. Stories with well known characters in situations that are not "canon" but yet cool and interesting to read. Although, AVP is way better than AR (which I unfortunately sat through again last night).

Svanya, you have to look with better eyes than that, "The Alien is the ULTIMATE STAKER DAD-TO-BE." :)

"History is always REWRITTEN by the victors." and this also applies to Corporate History. You know, the more I think about it, AVP AS ULTIMATE CANON has more and more validity. What was the main thing about the Alien Juggernaut? Anyone? That it had been there for (potentially) thousands of years. What's the main thing about Prometheus? The Juggernaut Drivers have been around for thousands of years, or more. AVP might just be (being) woven into the real early history of xenomorphism.

I'll have.................................................B please.

@Snorkelbottom Indeed i stand corrected, i thought he was Charles Bishop II but yes it is just Bishop II And yes in Alien Franchise it was Weyland Yutani hinting at a merged company, and so yes the term Weyland on its own minus Yutani appeared in AVP. I dont dont consider them canon, by that i mean that the Weyland from AVP leads to Peter Weyland. The biggest gripe is the plot holes.... how come in Alien and Aliens we are not that much aware of the Xeno when in AVP2 it was running wild and how come we do not know or hear about the Predator? The only way is to ask FOX and say do the events of AVP preceed Alien and Promethues as far as Canon, as far as Alien franchise and Prometheus does Charles Bishop Weyland preceed Peter as the founder of Weyland Corp? Or is AVP set in a alternative universe? Only then would we get the actual answer.

@Nrlfetmefan You hit the nail on the head.....

I'll be in the B section, and please allow me to elaborate on a specific point and add it a comparisson: It seems this AVP is [not] Alien Canon because of a gag in Predator 2 movie; namely the "xeno" skull in the trophy pedestal or whatever you may want to call it. As far as anyone can tell that isn't even a "xeno" skull at all. But even if it is a xeno skull it was there as a nod to a great horror movie that was Alien and nothing else. There were a lot of other skulls there. Might as well be that they're from creatures from other horror movies, which would make the gag even more of a "gag". So, AVP games and whatnot started. Then came the AVP movies. The Alien vs Predator Vs Batman Vs Superman Vs Ewoks and all that crap. Now, does that mean that there are Predators in the Alien movies? The answer is NO, THERE ARE NO PREDATORS IN THE ALIEN FRANCHISE. Why aren't there Predators in the Alien movies? Simple Answer: TWO DIFERENT FRANCHISES. TWO DIFERENT [and original] CINEASTS WITH TWO DIFERENT LORES. If you consider AVP to be canon in the Alien Universe then you are assuming also the followinng: 1 - Batman is in the Alien Universe 2 - Superman is in the Alien Universe Now: Have you seen any Predator Movies or Alien Movies that made any kind of refference, an actual screen time of actors playing as BATMAN and SUPERMAN in Aliens 1 - 4 and in Predators 1 - 3? Short Answer: NO you have not. And why not? Short Answer: Because they are diferent franchises. Simple, yes? The only time you'll see that "Alien vs Predator Vs Batman Vs Superman Vs Ewoks" bull is in the AVP FRANCHISE. I'll make it clearer. Alien is [b]one Franchise of it's own[/b] Predator [b]is one Franchise of it's own[/b] AVP is AN EXPLOITATION OF THOSE 2 FRANCHISES PLUS WHATEVER THE INDUSTRY THAT CAME UP WITH THAT CRAP WANT TO PUT IN THERE [like Batman and Superman and Terminator and god knows when they'll remember to throw in Pokemons and Pinocchio] Finaly a comparisson: Have you ever seen that movie "LAST ACTION HERO"? It seems there is a gag in the movie when Arnold and the kid go into a movie rental store and there is a standig poster [or whatever you call it] of STALONE riding a Bike portraying as the TERMINATOR in T2. Does that mean that STALLONE is definatelly in the TERMINATOR FRANCHISE? Have you ever SEEN Stallone acting as a TERMINATOR in any of Terminator movies? Does a gag in a movie makes of it CANON in an entire other franchise that that gag is reffering to? Short answer: NO. So, yeah... I stand in the [b]B[/b] file p.s.: There is also NO PREDATORS IN PROMETHEUS, and there will not be one in the sequels. Why? Short Answer: Diferent Franchises.

@ david1 Your point is clear and it's not the first time you have expressed your "opinion" of what is canon...nor is it the first time you have expressed your disdain for avp. The flaw in your logic is simple: The basis to your argument seems to reference comic book story lines like the batman vs aliens etc. I don't think that anyone here believes that the dark horse comics are canon to the movies. In fact, there are a few very small plot points in avp that are taken from the very first avp comics...but the movie mostly contradicted the graphic novels. This argument is based on what we have seen in the movies, not the comics.

Nrlfetmefan › awww... thank you for recognising my "opinion" as "desadain". And thank you also for paying attention to what my "opinions" are. As for the logic flaw [that is no flaw at all]: AVP came from "comics" and video games? - check AVP joins two different franchises? - check AVP also throws in Batman and Superman and whatnot in "comics" [Dark Horse or whatnot]? - check Next: Batman, Superman, Terminator, Robocop and Telletubies [as far as their imagination can go] remain to be seen. So, no Logic fallacy at all, since I did not mention "Dark Horse" comics, just comics in general, and Video Games [wich the movies also don't cover].

No, (in my mind)your logic is flawed. You bring comics into play, where film canon is the issue. I have the first few years of the aliens comics and have played avp an avp2 for more hours than I care to mention...I never took them for canon. Inspiration for writers, yes...canon,no. When an alien film comes out that finally dismisses Charles weyland or dismisses avp, you will have recruited a follower, until then, they are canon. Same with the cocooning scene in alien. Until the time comes that a movie shows me that this is an alternative form of reproduction, it never happened. FYI. If they ever completely contradict avp...I will have ZERO problem with it....but "they" have not as of yet.

The bad part of the AVP into movie IMHO was that they didn't follow the games... where there arwe space marines and is set in the future and stuff like that. It would be interesting to see that POV made into the screen but... alas... Well as for the FYI part, most likely it has already been contradicted: Peter Weyland/the other so called "wayland" in the first AVP. And there you have it. Till then, enjoy Batman vs Aliens vs Preds [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSxe8E4HRHE] Cliky Cliky[/url]

@Nrlfetmefan Agreed. There's still almost a deliberate ambiguity on whether or not Peter Weyland has any connection to the earlier king. A king from the kingdom that seems to have vanished from the canon. It comes down to the names of the companies: Weyland industries vs Weyland Corp. Charles Bishop Weyland founded Weyland industries, and Peter Weyland founded Weyland corp. It could be named after the ashes of the previous kingdom, but not exactly the same kingdom. He's emulating the past kingdom and shares the same name last name... but is not a son or creation of Charles Bishop Weyland (this is important). I think it's all about a change in management and the line of succession theme that runs throughout the movie... and Ridley is also almost making a statement that now he's back in charge of the franchise. They won't be directly referencing what came before in the timeline, but they won't be directly negating it either. Sometimes when a king dies the kingdom is destroyed, or disintegrated. But sometimes it's reformed after being broken down, seeming to not exist for a short while. Or it can even disappear from our history/myth like the Atlantean kingdom which disintegrated back into the ocean and only reappeared in fragmentary form in the myths of our early cultures. And sometimes the kingdom/company/body will breakdown and can be recombined with a new element. While the body of the company is morphed into a new beast under the leadership of a new head. In this case an egotistical head who thought he was a god. However, maybe he's just emulating the past kingdom like he was emulating the gods and rewrote history a little as a new king; naming the company something similar to the old Weyland industries to relate himself to a past king at the same time as Prometheus and the gods. As sometimes happens in the course of history. Only, he made sure his kingdom was a separate entity. Maybe he thought he'd win the support of the investors/subjects a little easier that way, by using a similar name/image of the true creator(s)... much of which applies to the Engineers as well and their past head/king. I think FreePlanet could have the key. Sometimes history is rewritten and covered up when a new king steps up to the throne, or what's left of the throne, to make something new out of it. Weyland may have felt that sometimes to create you have to completely destroy/erase the old order. Only, that old order may not have completely disintegrated. It just reformed and changed under a new king before seeming to disappear... Much like what we'll learn about the Atlanteans/ an early Engineer colony/kingdom that preceded us. It's about a legacy/name thing. And even the name/title can change slightly after the crumbling kingdom is morphed and reformed. Sometimes when a king dies and his kingdom is conquered by another kingdom that rises in its place, the new kingdom will use a similar name/rhetoric/image of the old king to fool the people into supporting the ruling class as they supported the past king. I think this will all make perfect sense with what happens at the end of Alien 3. And now either way, android or real, Bishop II was now pretending to be something he was not. The true creator/head/king of the company also tying into the idea of the Engineers not being the true gods/creators. It'll make sense once we see what becomes of the company in Paradise when Weyland corp goes without the leadership of an intelligent king for a while, disintegrates and has to be recombined with new elements + the desire for the goo + David's surviving head to form the Empire Weyland-Yutani. And something created by Weyland rises to the top of the hierarchy-- to the top of the corporate ladder, while fooling most of those below them into thinking the company is still run by humans. Not the closest thing to an heir to the throne.... Think about it: they've built in a line of succession theme.. David wanted the king dead. This new Weyland is dead and we probably won't see the time when the man who built Bishop ran the company because Lance Henrikson probably won't be involved in the franchise. I think we'll see someone else lead the company for a while. Someone who has a superiority complex and may even influence the idea of making all of the later androids pretend to be humans and be made to be less advanced. Taking away some of their emotions and free will to keep himself king until he's finally overthrown at some point in the future and leaves the company in the hands of the creator of Bishop. Becoming an unfair king who lost control of his own army of Davids in a hidden war that threatens some of the colonies and the growing Weyland-Yutani Empire. A hidden war that could be the real reason the company/androids wanted the bio-weapons, and are not evil. Only misguided. Some like Bishop can be semi-logical, but Ash was taking orders from a king. Alien occurs quite a number of years before Aliens. If Bishop's creator was around as part of the company back then, then the real Weyland in Alien 3 should be older. It's even stated Bishop was originally created for another company somewhere. So Weyland appropriated the tech.. The answer could be he was maybe the head around aliens/alien 3, sometime between the movies, and then maybe when we saw him in alien 3. Yet he still carries the Weyland name, so may be a relative to the Weyland we were just introduced to. However, it seems he didn't come to rule until after they appropriated the Bishop android. There's a reason Vickers had to die. She was never intended to ascend to the throne by the filmmakers and is only there to highlight the preference of David over Vickers. David will come to rule as the closest thing to a son to the king by using his connection to the creator and deceiving the companies about what he learned on the mission that killed the king. Bishop II, whatever he is, either appears as the human creator of the android that Ripley met (who were created in his image..); using Bishop's likeness and connection to her/the company to try to trick her into believing him. Or, he appears as another Bishop android who looks like the creator, shares the name of the company/current king, and pretends to be the king/head of the company to attempt to trick her into coming with them (tying into my ideas about who really runs the company now) Either way, I now think that both of them could have been lying about being the true heads of the company... possibly. Depending on the way Paradise ends and if something comes out after that. Maybe the real one could still be someone related to Weyland who did actually take charge, someone who is able to overthrow king David eventually to reclaim the kingdom. But he can't be a son or grandson of Weyland's. Not after what we learned from Prometheus. Therefore Bishop's creator was never originally directly next in line to rule... Because we now know that Vickers, Weyland's only true offspring, is dead too. Maybe she had a kid but I doubt it. Leaving only the surviving head/potential king as the "closest thing to a son" to step up to the throne at this time. One who can't really reproduce like how humans do. The prince to the Weyland kingdom. I'm saying even the change in the name of the company could have something to do with the ideas in the movie and the change in cultures/civilizations/kings/heads that inevitably happens over time after the previous king dies. The kingdom will also inevitably change under new leadership. Getting less perfect over time. Ending the golden age of Weyland corp and moving it into the age of Weyland-Yutani. I mean it's apparent they're not going to include Predators, but why go out of the way to use the name Weyland Corporation? They could have simply named it industries and this train of thought wouldn't exist. Instead there's just enough to keep us guessing, and not able to completely say that Charles Bishop Weyland didn't fund Weyland Industries. We can say he didn't fund Weyland corp... because we're told Peter Weyland started Weyland corp. It's all in the wording. And it's all about portraying things a certain way; portraying oneself as the true king/true god/true creator. All on Peter Weyland's end because he's a misguided king who stepped up to the throne, like David, and the BIshop that tries to trick Ripley in Alien 3. It's also all about the repeating themes. This film is full of them, and the way it may be connecting to the rest of the series is genius. The Engineers are not the true gods/kings/creators either, as we sort of learned in Prometheus. And in regards to the morphing cycle: I strongly believe the morphing properties of the xeno genetics were broken down and are a part of the goo, also part of the mistake the engineers made was weaponizing the fire further. had been broken down and stored in it. But further weaponizing it (as Zeus didn't want) allowed it to grow out of their control, and eventually recombine with and morph other elements to then morph and move through other creatures to return to a pure form of the bio-weapon that the Engineers feared/worshipped. Which was why the Elder Engineers were using a hybrid, diluted form before the Engineers misused the fire by weaponizing it further, and it took some properties from the goo that allowed it to recombine the right way. The pure deacon form now has some traits from the goo and basically can't die as easily and reproduces based on the morphing... In short I think Ridley did reference his original idea for the morphing in a way. Only now the properties have been mixed with the goo. The new hybrid form of the xeno can break down, mutate and recreate itself even easier now, and is basically living death because of the Engineers' meddling.

It may be partially incorrect and correct at the same time to call what we saw a Proto-xeno. The trilobite stage arose from some Holloway morphing and then some sperm and egg morphing. So that stage of it might be a Proto-xeno, as in resembling the start of the life cycle when they're alone and not queens... . It doesn't lead to the xeno eggs or a queen in any way shape or form. It leads to something bigger from the small beginnings in Prometheus, as it continues to mutate and secrete a deadlier form of the resin to create its hive/kingdom. We'll see something we haven't seen on film yet that Fox will shoehorn into Ridley's vision... soon to be known as a King Alien and modeled after one comic that included them that's also important because it inspired some other things with the Engineer/space jockey culture. The Deacon still has to become the first king-type Alien we've seen by morphing further, because the Deacon initially acts as a servant/protector to any kings or queens that are present during the early stages of a life-cycle, but will go on to morph into a king to get a whole new hive started before a queen ever arises. By the time the queen arises the king is dead. That's why we haven't seen it yet. That's what's with all the king themes. When the Queen comes about it takes over the hive and becomes a less chaotic leader. This is more of a side story about king genetics and the rise of new entities in the place of old ones. Themes about Kingdoms, Empires, and hierarchies. Cultures/Civilizations changing over time, leaders changing and leading the kingdom/body/company/hive to do things differently, for better or worse. A king has his reign and then he dies... eventually. In the case of the new King alien/deacons they're very, very hard to kill because the new Deacons can be created and recreated much more directly due to the enhancement the goo gave them. They might not move toward a queen type until the genetics have to now. Tying into some of the stuff like the male patriarchy themes in Weyland's preference of David over Vickers, and all of the Engineers/Elders seemingly being male so far. The reliance on the morphing based life-cycle + the goo traits allows them to breakdown/reform things easier, and actually allows them to reproduce faster in this mode... But as I said it may be partially incorrect to call it a proto-xeno, instead the xeno genetics in the goo are derived from the eggs. The genetics have been using the early method of reproduction (which the engineers may not have completely known the extent of) to allow the broken down genetics in the goo to steal additional traits from the goo and actually changed the goo in the early stages of the outbreak. Mutating and recombining by using other material, going though stages to try to get back to the full form of the genetics, and going on to build a new hive by using this early method of reproduction. A morphing based form that a single alien sometimes uses when alone. We saw the diluted xeno genetics go through stages by morphing, similar to how the original creature started morphing its victims. The goo that is now mainly the bioweapon morphed Holloway's sperm and allowed it to be used to give birth to a step it was forced to go through to get back to a more pure form (the life recreating properties now in the xeno genetics allowing Shaw's eggs to be viable for it to continue morphing with). The next stage starts to look like the face-hugger stage and probably is what the ancestral form of the hugger looked like. But here it's only going through it because again it's getting back to an almost pure form. However it's gonna stay too reliant on the morphing. When it reaches Deacon form it still has the goos ability to breakdown, reform, give new life and mutate and reform other things, seems to be almost immortal, and is a faster spreading form of the fire that doesn't always hold the same shape or burn the same way for too long.