Was the Deacon shown to us right from the beginning of the movie, on the Mural?

So David does go forth with his pebble to find Goliath. The light of life burns brighter and hotter than any weapon created, life in whatever form is eternal. Is such power a weapon in the hands of one who does not possess human emotions of remorse or ethical values truly a weapon? To what means will you go to find your answers? Whats questions does an Android dream of?

Oh and another thing that is sitting in my mind is, in the 4th alien movie, Ripley has an offspring which looks almost human. Remember that, where does that fit in then?

hey @Gahlaktus...i just read a REALLY (what I believe to be) dead on analysis of the film that even Damon Lindeloff has tipped his cap to. Everyone else should check it out too- tons of insight http://cavalorn.livejournal.com/584135.html#cutid1

@Wurnman; In that movie Ripley was part Xeno because of the cloning so all the Xenos that came from her Queen chestburster would have Human DNA in them as well.

@Svanya - the Queen Xenomorph in Alien Resurrection does not come from Ripley Clone 8, it comes from Ripley Clone 7 - the disfigured clone in the "Room of Horrors" that begs to be killed. Think about it... Using Warrant Officer Lt. Ellen Ripley's blood samples taken by Chief Medical Officer Jonathan Clemens on Fiorina 161, the USM, having developed selective cloning technology, realize they have 8 viable attempts at creating a clone. Clones 1-6 result in too much "bleeding" of the two genetic samples. Clone 7 however results in a Clone representing approximately 75% human DNA. The Queen Chestburster is removed and allowed to grow. In the final attempt the Clone has 99% human DNA. Thats two Queen Chestbursters, one with 75% of its genome (specimen 7), the other with 99% of its genome (specimen 8). Which one do you think the USM entrusted to the care General Perez, a specimen that ultimately developed a womb because of having too much human DNA in her genome?

My theory: The opening of the movie is supposed to show how the black goo was mixed with the genetically perfect DNA of the engineer and how this event was the origin of life on Earth. Clearly the engineer stood over a water source (which is where we know the first life-forms on Earth began.) This shows the basic and fundamental use of the black goo by the engineers- as a tool for creation, not destruction. And it teaches us that the black goo by itself does nothing- that it is dependent on it’s hosts DNA. So I believe the “shrine room” was a shrine to this black goo as the evolutionary marvel that it was. The giant statue of the engineers head shows this room to be celebrating them and their crowning achievements as the spreaders of life. In my opinion the engineers were well aware of the fact that sometimes the life they created became harmful to the greater universe . On the back wall they inscribed a mural with instructions (well I guess they wouldn’t need instructions- more of their art for the process) for how to destroy whatever life may have adapted via the black goo in ways which they did not like. This is something I think was missed before: I believe the green amber contains XENO DNA and the mural is a telling of the sacred process of destruction which needs to be there as a failsafe in case something goes wrong with their kick-starter life experiments. The worms mutating via the goo and the zombification of orange-hair are just examples of what happens when the black goo encounters an already evolved organism. Again- I think the black goo was engineered for “good” and was supposed to be used only in places where there was no advanced life and would have terrible effects if introduced to already evolved organisms. I do not believe the deacon is a XENO. I think this was just put in to beat us over the head with the fact that somehow the black goo spawns the XENO (although through a different combination of genes and events than what we saw). Even in the later Alien movies we see different versions and mixes of the Alien. The deacon was just showing the viewer that yes, the engineers hold the key to creating the XENO with the black goo (in case there was still a belief that the XENOs were a separate infection all together.) Also something that I don’t think has been brought up yet- Shaw is going to go on another mission. She has another bunch of years between when this film ends and when Ripley’s crew gets their distress call. She is looking for more engineers. I would venture to say that she and David are somehow involved in what happened to the original space jockey. Their future actions will then be the direct prequel to Alien.

All life on Earth from single-celled to modern humans shares a common ancestral DNA. If the engineers seeded life on earth as in the panspermia theory, they would have done so approximately 4 billion years ago. This means the opening scene with the Dr. Manhattan/Voldemort-looking alien took place 2-4.5 billion years in the past in order for his DNA to have seeded all life on Earth. Fast forward to when the engineers all died or went into stasis a mere 2,000 years ago. Why does their species appear EXACTLY THE SAME? They haven't evolved at all, while humans meanwhile have evolved from simple life forms into mammals, higher mammals, apes, primitive humans, modern humans and now have advanced technology and are capable of space travel. Meanwhile, the "engineers" haven't aged a day and their technology is roughly the same as it was thousands, millions, or billions of years ago. Also, when Dr. Shaw analyzes the DNA of the dead engineer, the computer says the DNA is a "match." If the engineers only visited Earth much more recently (tens of thousands of years ago in the cave paintings) and created humanity with DNA identical to their own, then modern humans would look identical to the Dr. Manhattan/Voldemort aliens. If the DNA matched completely, humans would HAVE TO look just like the aliens. No way around it.

With regard to the opening of the film, Scott mentioned that may not even be earth for all we know because remember when they were showing shots of LV-223, it look the same....as the opening shots. So, what we saw in the opening seq, may not even be earth....

Emmanuelzorg : Very well wrought! I'd like to hear more. Maybe you've put a finger on both the sacred and destructive sides of the mythology underlying Prometheus. Now, Ridley Scott characterized the engineers as "dark angels." How does the your view of the "green amber" fit with his sentiments. If the engineers are, as Scott says, dark angels, for whom would "the sacred process of destruction" be intended, others, themselves? What if the failsafe itself turns against the "priests" themselves? What if the engineers are the victims of the sacred xeno? Incidentally, your post is the only thing I've ever read that made sense of both the sacred and destructive sides of that mural. Usually, I read a lot of nonsense about the engineers being engaged in "xeno-worship" etc. Which makes no sense to me. As if they were a group of technologically advanced "primitives" bowing before a sacred totem. But your post is well reasoned and actually makes sense. So, I'd like to hear more. Thank you. Best

@ PlotHolePuncher this would all fall under suspension of disbelief- but maybe the black goo starts life and then ultimately funnels the development of life towards the human being form being the higher life-form on the planet...the process of evolution is random and it is obviously highly inconceivable that the end result of that process could be planned from the creation of the first cell billions of years earlier, but that could be the magic and purpose of their black goo. this could also explain how all incantations of the "evil" life created by the goo seemed to be leading towards the XENO form. perhaps when the black goo is weaponized, no matter what the host DNA is, it will eventually evolve into the XENO (hence the deacon resembling but not completely being a XENO). and as for the DNA test- (again suspension of disbelief), maybe the scan showed over a 99.99% similarity in DNA structure and therefore displayed it to be a "match". even identical twins share SOME DNA discrepancy i believe.

Why do we need to assume that the DEacon has a pre-existing life cycle? Holloway is dosed, his DNa is Mutating. He has sex with SHAw, depositing his mutating sperm--whIch I believe is the squid. Shaw is infertile--I do not believe her egg is involved here--this is just Shaws mutated sperm growing to the squid creature. When the squid/sperm creature is out at the end--it's goal is impregnation--hence it inserts into the Engineer, and out comes the Deacon--whos syas there was a pre-existing cycle of this lifeform prior to this moment?

@marcx (i just saw this last night so im fuzzy on the details), but when david scans her, doesnt he affirm that she is pregnant based on the scan (not just that she has a creature inside of her). wouldnt that look different to him? also- when it was removed, wasn't there some kind of slimy egg-sack around it inferring that it had been growing as a developing creature in a womb would do and not just as a parasite living inside of her?

emmanuelzorg--I plan to see it again later this week so I will have to double check--but we know Sahw is infertile, and to me that creature looks very sperm-like...And makeing the leap from sprem to impregnating facehugger seems to me a logical (realtively speaking) progression... I really beleive the connection o the original alien xenomorph is less direct--similiar genetic mixing yielded the xenomorph--but they are not directly evolutionarily related....hence the life cycles are not identical either... Perhaps a goo-infected engineer mating with another engineer might yield the traditional xeno---who knows?

Yes, thank you, @emmanuelzorg, but I've read that. While it's good, the article reminds me of something that T.S. Eliot once said of Walt Whitman, and I paraphrase Eliot : "Whitman didn't seem to know that evil existed." The cavalorn article seems to come down on the side of the engineers as "avenging angels." Their establishment, however, seems to me to be more like a high sci-fi version of Milton's dark cavernous kingdoms in Paradise Lost. The scales of justice seem to me to be infinitely more complex than the catechisms outlined there. He doesn't seem capable of seeing the evil in the engineers. I have no doubt that engineers function is to put an end to failed experiments, to enact as you say, the sacred processes of destruction. But there is no such clear demarcation of dark from light, or good from evil in Prometheus. It seems to me that all the inhabitants and occupants of Prometheus's gloomy nether regions are in the same hell. In what way are the engineer's actions more sacred than, say, Shaw's Xmas C-section? Not in Prometheus. It's easy to come down on the sound of good when you can see its light, but in Prometheus there's virtually no light at all. In what way is the jack-booted thug of an engineer better than, say, Holloway? We're in a kingdom where the moral ambiguity of David reigns supreme. It's a creepy midnight with a lot of dull shades of grey. Mao Tse Tung used to say, "Things are always darkest just before they turn completely black." The only unambiguously moral high ground I saw in Prometheus were Holloway's self-sacrifice, Vickers nurture of a father who couldn't return love, and the self-sacrificing trinity of Janek, Ravel, and Chance. These were the true gods of self-sacrifice. Notice that these actions of self-sacrifice all took place in the clear light of day. The engineer got what was coming to him by daylight as well. So, that article doesn't really address the issues you've raised. I'd still like to hear from you because I think you have something to say.

A great topic filled with great discussion. Seven whole pages of it. Heh. Kudos to all involved. So much has been said, but i have a few thoughts (mostly ramblings, but maybe something will catch with someone): -I wonder if 'Sacrifice Engineer' is a little misleading. There is so little information given in that scene. Seems like, no matter how you cut it, more is going on there. Maybe it's earth. Maybe its a noble sacrifice. Maybe it's a forced action of the naga over rebelling servants. Maybe its LV 223. Maybe its another group of engineers. What we know is that there's a different ship involved. This engineer is suit-less (but has a garment cloth-->indicating some genitals). He drinks the goo, which seems to destroy the body and promote life of some sort (good thing his remains landed in the waterfall). -I love the idea that, one way or another, human life is being utilized in some epic war. It seems like both a romantic idea and a great punch-line to the search for the meaning of our creation. I hope this is explored further in Prometheus II. -PlotHolePuncher brings up an interesting bit. She/he mentions a distinct lack of evolution in the engineers. QUOTE: Fast forward to when the engineers all died or went into stasis a mere 2,000 years ago. Why does their species appear EXACTLY THE SAME? They haven't evolved at all, while humans meanwhile have evolved from simple life forms into mammals, higher mammals, apes, primitive humans, modern humans and now have advanced technology and are capable of space travel. Meanwhile, the "engineers" haven't aged a day and their technology is roughly the same as it was thousands, millions, or billions of years ago. ENDQUOTE. Interesting. Although, they don't appear exactly the same. The sacrifice engineer was all kinds of naked. This ties into the sumerian thread; the idea that the engineers had their 'angelic appearance' replaced by a mark of wrongdoing-->the 'demonic appearance' of them in their suits. But those suits, of course, do not seem to have evolved over time. Right? A possible explanation here is that perhaps the engineers are somewhat artificial. Created as servants. If the naga are all powerful-why make servants that would change over time. This is of course assuming evolution is some sort of button you can flick off when creating a species. -Last point. Ole Lindelof is getting all Lindeloffy in a few emails sent back and forth (see thread by Engineering). In it Lindelof writes: Q: Did you and Ridley and Jon discuss who created the Engineers? A: Yes. But the more fascinating question is this: Do the Engineers KNOW who created them? This is throwing me. Has been all morning. It makes me think that the sumerian mythology might be the right track, but not EXACTLY right. Some sort of curve ball out there. So what about this: The engineers in the film look pretty much identical (the ones seen without helmets at least). So identical copies. Oh right, there's another group of identical copies in the film's world: David. Some connection here? Class. Finals. Gotta run. Sorry if this is half-baked. Thanks for reading it. Lets discuss more : D

@Wurman the creatures in the 4th alien movie are mutated, bastardized xenos. None of the creatures there, not even "Ripley" were what they were supposed to be. On another topic, Here's a theory I thought about earlier. Since the mural depics what may or may not be a xeno and the xeno's life cycle. What if the black goo is xeno queen's royal jelly or some form of it. It might explain the mutagenic properties, since xenos themselves mutate depending on the host.

Proxy : No doubt about there's little apparent evolution of the engineers. Let's assume that the scene we see at the beginning of the movie takes place 3 or 4 billion years ago. The only apparent difference in the engineers apparent to the eye are the suits and their neck gills. The lack of evolution suggests to me that the engineers have an advanced but specialized function. They are created to fulfill this function and only that. Hence, evolution is not necessary in their case. But who determined those functions? There would seem to be a caste system operating behind the scene. Certainly, Sumerian mythology suggests so. There's no doubt that they are partially artificial but their artificiality seems to be based in the first instance on organic life artificially appended to their physiology. The gills, the suits, the chairs seem to be huge sea shells, the gills seem adapted from aquatic life, etc. Everything comes from somewhere else but not from the engineers themselves. This suggests that they are not creative but adaptive. Someone else is guiding creation, the engineers are servitors. Its quite clear when we see the artwork for the Elder Engineer, he and the Sacrificial Engineer don't belong to the same group. Obviously the Sacrificial Engineer is doing the Elder Engineer's bidding not his own. This suggests that the Elder Engineer is a creator and the Sacrificial Engineer is one of the substances used to form his will. So, yeah, there's something and someone else behind the scenes.

Where are you getting the artwork/murals from?

Newts : Go to the conceptual artwork section of this website. Hit Prometheus Media, its on the scroll on the right, or go to home and find it there. Best

Gahlaktus: Oh that's interesting. I can see what you're saying about being adaptive organisms. I thought the neck gills were just part of the suit, but you might have something there. I completely agree with your idea of an advanced specialized function. Would you say then that the sacrificial engineer is one function and SJ is a different function? Or even that one group uses engineers as SJ's/scientists and another group uses engineers as sacrificial engineers/ingredients for making life/servants of that life they are used to create? That would explain why engineers seem to have visited earth in the distant past. But to what end are they helping humans? This leads me to the possible of multiple guiding forces. Competing forces that create life in different ways to use it in a universal game of chess. Humans could play the part of some newer pieces.

Ok here is a thought: What if the "Engineer" from the beginning of the movie was a Rogue? What if he was not supposed to plant the seeds of life on earth? What if the ship that came to earth just a surveyor ship and was inspecting the world for the Engineers to eventually come and populate it. Also what if others who believed the same as the "Prime Engineer" came to earth to check on us from time to time. Its possible that an Engineer came down and reported back what he found around 2000 years ago. Which enraged the Engineers on LV-223 to the point where they were prepared to unleash a bio weapon on Earth. The Engineers on LV-223 could be part of the engineer faction that believes in destruction and self preservation as opposed to self sacrifice and the giving of life. In addition the Crew of Prometheus/Weyland assumed that the maps throughout the movie were to LV-223. It is entirely possible that they landed on the wrong planet within the R. System. It is also possible that the Space Jockey from Alien was trying to prevent this and took the eggs off of LV-223 as he may have been a "test subject". After the space jockey of LV-446 left, the remaining "Engineers" were trying to reverse engineer/improve/perfect the XENO DNA ever since(hence the streamlined vials/urns). This also would lead to the XENO being natural and the Engineers were trying to improve upon it and harvest it for future use. They became over confident and it destroyed all but One who probably sacrificed the others to save himself. Any thoughts on this?

Proxy: yes, that's right, they're both specialized functions. It's quite possible that the Sacrificial Engineer has done nothing else but prepare for the moment of sacrifice his entire life. His ship is different, his body is different, the order to which he belongs and from which he has received guidance is different. Quite like horses and racehorses. He is a creative engineer. The LV 223 engineers are a bio-military and bio-sciences research facility. Their appearance is totally different, their objectives are different. If the objective of the Sacrificial Engineer is create life, then the objective of the LV 223 engineers is to destroy life when and where it goes wrong according to criteria known to the engineers themselves. Notice that the last engineer appears adapted to breathe external atmosphere for brief periods, it seems. That's how he chases down Shaw from the crashed Juggernaut (a dreadnought, a ship of a different order than the sacramental ship of the opening. The dreadnought is built solely for the purpose of destroying civilizations. There's a brilliant essay on the web entitled, "The Genius Of The Derelict," if you want to know what the derelict was built to do). The gills also signify something else. Remember the deleted transmission scene from Alien? How incomprehensibly alien, terrifying and mysterious that transmission sounded? Well, the engineers of LV 223 sound like that. When you see the movie again listen for their voices beneath the music as the holograms communicate across the cockpit. You'll hear a quieter, softer, more subdued and less dramatic vocalization than that of the deleted transmission, but it has the same strange sound and tonality. Quite eery. Well, the gills cause that. They're terraformers as well, so they need to extract oxygen from noxious atmospheres from time to time. So, I think we can safely conjecture , based on vocal patterns, that the Alien space jockey came from LV 223. So, there we have it!

Multiple guiding forces indeed. Revelation  12:7   A war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fought against the Dragon.The Dragon and his angels fought back but he was defeated. And there was no place left for them in heaven... Revelation 12:13 And when the Dragon found he was cast to the earth he pursued the woman who gave birth to the man child... Revelation 12:17  Then the Dragon became furious with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed.... Look closely at the Xeno mural in the temple. Notice the wings.   In Alien 3 the Xeno is referred to as the Dragon. Could this be the answer to Shaws question "why do you hate us, why do you want to kill us?" Are the  original Xenos fallen Angels still jealous and furious at their Creators beloved creation .If I was a fallen angel and I wanted to hurt my creator ,I would try to take out the bloodline that would bring him forth. If I failed to do that I would probably be so pissed I would try to kill off the bloodline that brought him forth using a weaponized biomechanical hybrid of myself and those damn humans that are supposed to be superior to me.It's what I choose to believe. Then again maybe it's just a monster movie?

Ok i have two questions 1. Why were the Engineers on the 3d image running down the tunnel entering the door wearing masks if the bio dome is suppose to create breathable air? 2. When David took the source code dna from the vase, was the source code dna floating inside the black liquid or separate from it? My thinking is that whatever killed/chased the engineers could breathe in the planets atmosphere because the bio dome was still creating a breathable atmosphere and secondly the source code dna was mixed with the black liquid which means the black liquid has a counter effect on the source code's development. That is now if my questions are answered the way i am thinking the answers will be.

All in All, Hulk Smash them all ;0)

OK i just remembered that David took the source dna from another holder that was filled with a yellowish transparant liquid. So it never came in contact with the black liquid. So the black liquid is then an activator or catalyst.

hey pals need to say some of you might want to lay low on the definitive statements. You guys are rehearsing your own theories and writing them with so little doubts that you end up convincing yourself they are right. You even come with made-up stuff that finds absolutely no support in any material but state that like it came out of a reliable source. Prior to the release, I translated extensive parts of a French magazine with in depth interviews of cast/crew. Many hints and reliable infos given, in particular by sfx/prosthesis artists. You can find the thread [url=http://www.prometheus-movie.com/community/forums/topic/5835]**here**[/url] and download the pdf I did [url=http://www.mediafire.com/?aalk3aavutxyagm]**here**[/url] The engineers's appearance is not totally different. The main engineer we see, on LV-223, wears a suit, that designers and prosthesis artists called the "precious suit". It is not his body. What can reasonably be assumed though, is it could be part of the biomechanoid technology and act in close relation, almost symbiosis with the body. Read the pdf and you will see that people interviewed discuss how engineers generally were conceived like "Michelangelo statues with alabaster pale, semitransparent skin". Later info about how they casted and molded the 4 actors playing the various engineers make it quite clear they were all considered "the same". Ok, will have stuff to post on other points later but wanted to clear that up. Guys, start your sentences with "maybe", "I think" or "it could suggest that" and you will see that your world will change. It depends if what your care for is tricking people in believing your stuff or actually getting closer to the real deal....

who named it Deacon? Is that like how slimer from ghostbusters was really called onionhead? I'd call that alien puppet unfinished and badly articulated, was that supposed to be the tongue/alien jaws coming out? The Kenner Alien toy worked better than this big budget puppet.Ridley cranked this out so he can work on another mediocre movie.

iapetus: What are you on about. It's a discussion about the movie and thinking what we think the movie is about. To be fair it's really silly of everyone here hypothesizing about something that is in essence only a movie. It's someone's idea that he is bringing forth to us, it's not real. Therefore people will make up their own fixations of what direction the writer is steering us into. You give an idea of what you believe is fact, and everyone else will follow or disagree. If you want the REAL DEAL then contact MR Scott and Co. and ask them. Then we all know the truth behind the movie. Even then still people will put out their own ideas to the masses of what they think/want the movie to be about. We are here to discuss something we all like.

It is called so in the Prometheus artwork book, apparently. Can see that in the corresponding gallery, on the site. The scans are of the french version of the book and mention it as "le Diacre" which is French for "the Deacon". Also explains (still in French) how it was purposefully made a bit slender to recall its E. Shaw feminine origin, and a bit clumsy and disgraceful with a thin smooth skin to give it something of a foal's appearance. Wasn't a big fan of its design at all when I saw it, and still am not really, but at least that explanation made it somewhat acceptable as it seems to be what they were going for... What is not acceptable as a name given in the book though, is "Cuddle" being called the "trilobite", while trilobites are arthropods and nowhere near cephalopods like in the film... derp