David Did Not Create the Xenomorph

@Chili

Concerning the petrified egg in the laboratory (quotation). David to Oram:

"In case you are wondering, I had nothing to do with it. It lies as I found it, a supreme example of the engineers' skill. And also, I suppose, of their hubris. Would that I could create something so perfect in its function . . ."

There is nothing ambiguous about this, Michelle.

Chili you and I rarely agree on anything you will remember our conversations about David being passive aggressive with Sir Peter which is actually the central point of his relationship and expanded in wonderful literary detail in the book. 

Kethol very kindly has taken a transcription from ADF and he to is not in agreement with me either I quoted this notion to him several days ago (His "not exactly" remarks on another thread) and yet quotes exactly the point I am making 

"It is possible that the Engineers developed the xenomorph, or it is possible that David developed a more advanced version of the xenomorph"

What could be clearer that ADF wants to leave it ambiguous.

What is interpretation is how we initially receive the book I instantly took it to be a lie you took it to be fact thats completely cool. I entirely see how you would do that it would be nice if you had the ability to see the other persons point of view.

I also, like others, take all the other narrative movements and circumstantial elements and move toward a David creation myth. However I must stress unlike many I see the XXX121 as simply a product of a much greater creation story the ALIEN pathogen. David merely synthesised its qualities with other elements to create the particular creatures we see in the third act. 

What we cannot be certain of at a mythological level is how was the Alien pathogen created (so far Ridley sees it as an Ebola like strain) nor its relationship to the life giving humanoid creation spark which is one interpretation of the teardrop incident.

Put simply the Alien life cycle is merely one bi product which David instigates a certain outcome from. It is only part of a much greater and much more terrifying creation story.  

@Big Dave 5.46 

I simply wanted to say I took a lot of pleasure from reading this post because you actually acknowledge in a very honest way the impact on fans of having so much of the speculative and developmental knowledge in the public arena. 

I am perfectly happy to acknowledge that looking at these prequel stories is like turning over a many faceted prism shaped glass and looking at it from a number of angles. 

We also would learn something about ourselves if we as Katherine says "give ourselves permission" to own up to what we want from these films. We find answers which suit us. 

I know I needed the David/Shaw narrative to mean something which left David more emotionally aware, that was my need. The fact it is both vague and Davids reaction is less than clear lets down one of my requirements whereas whether the specific beast that always ends up blown to bits was created by the Engineers, David or Astro Zeneca makes no odds to me but I do see it really inhabits other peoples feelings.

Something else I learned from Covenant I was 23 when A was made and 57 when Prometheus was made both were right for me at those times Covenant is of little interest beyond the academic for this 62 year old. I am currently watching the  final season of "Person of Interest" its analysis of A I knocks the David narrative out of the park.    

Michelle: As a matter of fact, I agree with most of what you write (and enjoy reading it). You are very skilled and has a lot of knowledge. However, there are some topics where we have differed somewhat. Is David really passive-aggressive? Isn’t he very actively aggressive (the fight scene with Walter, for example, and the extermination of the engineers)? I suppose it depends on how you define passive-aggressiveness?

As for the egg (and facehugger) in the laboratory and whether David created the xeno, it is, of course, ambiguous if we take all things into account - interviews with RS, the movie, script, the novel etc. I suppose it’s because I don’t like the idea that David created the xeno and that the spacejockey on LV-426 only has been dead for 20 years or so (not fossilised). That’s why I was glad that in the novel Foster points out that David didn’t create the xeno (or the egg with the facehugger). He could be lying to Oram of course (about the petrified egg being created by the engineers), but why would he? What would the point be? As they enter the hatchery, David tells Oram that he has made the eggs there. Why would he lie about the petrified egg in the lab?

The mural is also very interesting. I wonder if we should interpret it as some kind of worship of the god of destruction which they can create with the help of the mutagen when they need it (war e.g.). In order to create this perfect being, an engineer or a human needs to be sacrificed?

By the way, the petrified egg could have been brought from LV-223, by the engineers, to their homeworld, just to show the citizens what they have accomplished in their facilities on LV-223?

@Chili

Thanks a very gracious reply and your points about both the mural and the egg are great possibilities.

I also understand entirely why you want the derelict SJ and cargo to be ancient. The fact that it was at the time of Prometheus and might not be if we back into it is in my view an error. 

Equally I understand how John Logan writing for a huge global audience and the exciting and burgeoning Asia market wanted something quite straight forward.

Kethol, who gives the impression the micro science is important to him, again understandable if you cognate that way makes the point as others have that the laboratory is a bit sparse on tech to take the vials and shaw and engineers and create Eggs from a kick starting position.

The dramatic element in the film which places David as the creator of the creature in the third act is the interaction between the new born and David its really difficult not to see that as a quasi parent child interaction aided by the absent mother Shaw David's great love.

So for me to come and say "This is it" has holes in it where as to say this is how I interpret it and I appreciate others see differently works better.

The real question is, is Ridley deliberately vague with all this or are we, as we always have been, dealing with endless changes to suit whatever is being done in a particular movie.     

Chli: I totally agree with you since it would give David too much of an importance and I don’t like that idea. Unfortunately, the movie was too vague about this. Hopefully Scott doesn’t think that he created the original monster. Maybe I shall try to get the novelization of the movie.

Michelle: “All’s well, that ends well”, not just when it comes to movies and prequels :) I actually liked the story in AC very much, particularly the relationship between Shaw and David (which is developed beautifully in “The Crossing”). The AI-problem (can synthetics feel - love for example?). David and Walter discuss this in the movie where Walter says that he saved Daniels not because of love but because of duty, which he is programmed for. David says he loves Shaw (but tortures and murders her . . .). In Foster’s novel, this is developed more and Walter is beginning to think that he actually loves Daniels (where he watches her sleep).

I have no problem with David becoming the villain and tampering with biology. It would be sad though if the ancientness of the derelict would be thrown out the window. There are still ways of saving this, although I suppose I could live with it. David, as a synthetic, sitting in the pilot chair of the derelict with a chestburster hole would perhaps be too much, though.

Thoughts_Dreams: Do read the novel. As always, a novel has the opportunity to delve into things more deeply.

They should have it where David just found the Egg on LV-426 (which is RIGHT NEXT DOOR to Lv-223), and go with Dan O'Bannon's original Xeno backstory and call it a freaking day.

I think FOX/RS are watching in some way the criticism that the movie gets, they have more implied David creates it... as the Novel may not be taken as 100% Canon.

If we look at the Novel maybe indeed as Michelle had said, David could be misleading Oram with the Egg and its Origin... if not then i find it a bit odd that it was found on Paradise, but it could fit in with a story but i find it brings more Questions than Answers.

so if David did not create that Petrified Egg, it would be more likely David either acquired it from LV-223, or LV-426 (Derelict) or indeed it was on the Juggernaught... i dont buy the last one as it would seem Dr Shaw spent some time on this ship before she put David back together.

looking at the Weyland Files and Viral Site etc... i would assume if we take what David said to Oram in the Novel as Canon... and True... that he investigated LV-426 and recovered a Egg and took this with him to Paradise

But the movie makes it seem different, and a bit more drawn to David creating these, or evolving them from Organisms that was created via the Bombardment.   Ridley Scotts comments seem to back up that David created it.

But as the Novel is a bit different, and its a bit ambiguous in the Movie, i think it allows FOX/RS to change which way they will tackle the Origin of the Xenomorph Eggs on the Derelict.

I think they have left it open so they can explore a number of ways to show how those Eggs on the Derelict came to be.

@BigDave : Perhaps we should start a petition. :P

BigDave: You’re probably right, as usual. :) Let’s hope that Fox/RS listen to criticism (they seem to have done so in the turning back to xenomorph-horror in AC?). Foster's novel might not be considered canon, but Fox must have approved it, I suppose?

Interestingly, when David shows Oram the petrified egg (and the facehugger) in the lab (in Foster’s novel), he says that “It lies as I found it, a supreme example of the engineers’ skill”. But, it was also alive when he found it: “Sadly, it became aggressive, so I had to euthanize it”.

There are many possibilities here, I suppose. David could be lying (perhaps to make Oram feel secure). But, what’s the point in lying about who created the egg in the lab, when he tells Oram that he did create the eggs in the hatchery? To be honest, Oram is exceedingly stupid (but I suppose we can look at it as curiosity, which killed the cat, took over?).

Furthermore, (as you suggest BigDave) David could have brought the egg from LV-223 or LV-426, or from the juggernaut (but then it wouldn’t have lain as he found it). Another possibility is that the engineers brought it from the facilities on LV-223 to “paradise” to show the citizens (not so wise if it was still alive)?

But, the novel shows us that David did create creatures stemming from the spores (motes) and with the help of the mutagen/pathogen. He shows Oram dead and preserved specimens lined up (like the skinned engineer) as on Madame Tussaud's:  small mutated insects, neomorphs, xenomorphs/protomorphs etc.

But when it comes to who created the xeno (We have the mutagen/pathogen, the mural with a xeno/deacon, eggs and facehuggers etc - and the suggestion from the movie and other sources that David created the xeno), it might be as you suggest, BigDave - they deliberately left it open?

David is just back engineering something that has already existed for a long time.

Besides, he's not even doing it right. When the Xeno popped out of Oram's chest it looked like a fully formed miniaturized Xeno instead of looking like the little guy that popped out of Kane.

I think we have to remember that there is a big difference between creation and invention. David is creating Xenos but not inventing them.

And, David admires Xenos because they create - they don't invent. But they're very prolific.

I think the "left as he found it" part can be ambiguous... It would be like if you found a Bike on the Road and brought it home to see if you can fix it (as it needed a bit of repair) and you Parents ask what you have brought back and why is it how it is... you would say the Bike was like this when you found it.

So i think that still David could have found the Egg some place else....   I think this is where the people who work on these movies dont give many ideas any after thought... they have a idea and leave a clue or dialog without actually thinking so how does this apply.

They dont have to spell out to us via the Characters where the Egg Came from, as long as they (Rs/FOX etc)know where the Egg came from.  It appears they dont put much thought into stuff like this.

If this Egg is found where he found it, does this mean some other place on Paradise, but then we have to ask if he could find it some other place on Paradise, it in a way is not WHERE HE FOUND IT as far as pointing out where David had his Lab.

So if the Egg was in that Workshop found as it was, just laying there to be discovered by David after the Bombardment and he had nothing to do with the Egg (could mean not a effect of his Bombardment) then we really have to ask why did those Engineers have ONE Egg in that Room.

How did that one Egg not become infected by these Engineers who clearly are wearing no Protective Gear, and why have One Egg... what happened to the others?

It could mean they Sacrificed Hosts to Procreate the Xenomorphs and this Temple was a Sacrificial Place for this Purpose... This would fit with HR Gigers Mural to a degree.

But i would think the Engineers would not be storing these Eggs or even just the One Egg in that place... but we do not know the full lay out of the Cathedral and what Doors that can be sealed are between it and the other parts.

Where would they Harvest the Eggs?  And how.... is this why they needed Females? The Concept work for the Cathedral Doors had Females on it... with Hair too....     Without Shaws Eggs in Prometheus we have to assume there would be NO DEACON and without Shaw it appears David would not be able to create those XENOMORPHS..

so i think this could be a link/connection  but so many things could be due to how ambiguous it is... if Female Eggs are needed and the Black Goo then we have to wonder why those beings would be not so cautious and actually welcoming the Juggernaughts Arrival.   If they knew what the Black Goo was and how it is used.

Unless they Actually Worship the Self Sacrifice to create the Xenomorph, and Sacrificing a Few to create Eggs is seen as a very important thing to them.

But then we see the Juggernaught was designed to Drop that kind of Payload... and not merely a Science Vessel thats transporting a few Urns to be taken to use in experiments.

And why did we see no Reliefs/Murals or Statues devoted to the Xenomorph or similar?  Prometheus had one.. we clearly know those Engineers had been conducting experiments etc related to the Xenomorph/Deacon.

Paradise they are only Statues etc dedicated to Humanoid Life and not any Xeno related ones.. 

So all in all i find the Engineers having a Egg or using them for Sacrifices on this place a bit odd.... but RS comments when working on AC when the Synopsis came out...well when AC was announced was  that THEY (David and Shaw? or Covenant Crew?) are off to the Planet of the Engineers where THEY (David/Shaw or Covenant Crew) will discover a Evolving Creature that THEY  (Engineers or David/Shaw) had made.

(I use the Brackets to highlight the potential multi meaning) as the comment is so ambiguous as to who the THEY could mean in each case.

And so it could be seen as the Engineers Created/Left behind something that had Evolved by the time David and Shaw or the Covenant Crew arrived... but i feel this would have fitted more with David and Shaw discovering a World where most of its inhabitants had became victim to such a thing, but clearly they arrived at a World with a decent Population of maybe a few hundred thousand Engineers.  So feels a bit odd.

I think RS has hinted that David created the Eggs some how so this makes more sense.. more so if David Re-designed them from something he discovered either on LV-223/426 or some place he was at prior to arriving on Paradise.

BigDave: Yes, there are a lot of problems. The exact quotation concerning the petrified egg is “It lies as I found it, a supreme example of the engineers’ skill”, though. I suppose it’s possible to interpret this in different ways, and David could also be lying (although I fail to see why he would do that). David does lie later on, though, as he shows Oram the living eggs that he definitely has created with the horrible help of Shaw. He beckons Oram to have a closer look at one of the eggs and tells him “Perfectly safe, I assure you”.

But I would still say that there is somewhat of a discrepancy between the film and the novel, where the movie leans towards David being the creator of the xenomorph, and the novel that the engineers created it.

In a way, it might make sense that the engineers brought an egg which they had engineered in one of the many facilities on LV-223 to the temple on “Paradise” (they could perhaps have used abducted female humans to create them?)? LV-223 was the “science department” and the temple on “Paradise” is the sacred place where the cult and sacrifice is taking place (as you hint at BigDave) in order to bring forth the xenomorph when they needed it (war, for example)?

Also, in the temple ruin, David shows Oram stuffed xenomorphs which David says that he cannot (re-)create without more live specimens (this is where Oram fits in). Therefore, he cannot have created the stuffed ones?

But as you point out, BigDave, there are no murals or statues devoted to the xenomorph in the temple on “Paradise”. There are Buddha-like statues of offering outside the temple, though. A topic which I believe that you have explored?

Predators kills last xenos on the earth, on Antarctic !!!  Lex and Scar kill last queen !!!  There are no more xenomorphs !!!

One century latter one android - David evoke one alien species.  The Deacons !!!

He try to control it, but unsuccessful, he try create new one which he can control !!!  When he find dead facehugger ( we saw drawings of it in his lair ) he try to bring it to life...he cant... he clone it... but it need egg... sth need to lie a egg... a female... a queen !!!   He connect eggs with Dr. Shaw... he create first live eggs after century of they extinction !!!  He brings xenomorphs to live again, resurrect them !!!    

Is it enough good ???    I try my best :P  lol

Anyway there is a huge jump between evolution of spores to one big alien egg !!!    How he create egg, how he geet facehugger in it.. only good explanation for that is... old dead egg with facehugger in it... which he cloned and merge with Dr. Shaw !!!   He resurect xenomorphs !!!  Don't create them !!!   He don't create anything at all in Prometheus, not even in Covenant... he just bring things to life !!! 

ArkhamWrath: I agree that this seems to be the case in the novelization of Alien: Covenant. In the movie, however, they seem to have moved in the direction that David actually created the xenomorph (the eggs waiting for a host, that is) through experimentation with the mutagen/pathogen, fauna on the planet and Shaw.

chli:

In the movie.... (hm) Prometheus prequel of Covenant, we saw mural in engineer ship !!!    Mural of creature like xenomorph queen, in room where they find black goo !!! So engineers create bioweapon/virus based on xeno !!!

It only can mean that is black goo based on xeno dna... David find a host for ''virus''.   It evolve to ''deacon''.... he don't create it.  

When he discover what evolve from it, he head to engineers homeworld !!!  Kill them and find proper DNA to clone it.   He come there and kill them !!!   After that he find facehugger !!!   He try to bring it to life...he cant... he clone it... but it need egg... sth need to lie a egg... a female... a queen !!!   He connect eggs with Dr. Shaw... he create first live eggs after century of they extinction !!!  He brings xenomorphs to live again, resurrect them !!! 

Maybe I am an Alien purist but I am totally against the idea that David is the creator of the original Xeno. If they go that route then I will be very disappointed. David is interesting in a way but he is not that interesting and should not have that much of an importance to the story in general if that makes sense. Artificial persons can be interesting but they shouldn’t have that big role as David and Walter had in the Alien universe and a robot should definitely not be the creator of the Xeno. Fassbender is a good actor but I think that Scott gives him too much of an importance which I think is unfortunate. This is Alien, not Blade runner.

They could go in the direction that he re-created it using Engineer tech but that is another thing.

@chli

I like you're explanation and I think you're right. I think David resurrected the Xenos rather than inventing them.

I agree, Thoughts_Dreams. Thanks, VivisectedEngineer.

I wonder how RS intends to sew all of this together? Will the eggs and the Space Jockey on LV-426 have been there for only 18 years, and who will be sitting in the pilot chair of The Derelict - David?

Wouldn't it be nice if RS went back in time to tell the story of what happened on LV-223 about 2000 years prior to the happenings in Prometheus? The story behind the outbreak which leads to a juggernaut leaving LV-223 (with something in the cargo hold) and crash landing on LV-426?

it has been said that the engineers in some way may worship the original form of the xeno and the reasons behind this must be something we cannot comprehend. I mean the organism as we know it wipes out any other species so why worship it unless the original form is something completely different. originally RS wanted the xeno to evolve into an intelligent species able to communicate and what we saw in alien was just the xeno in its adolescent stage where its purely aggressive but would later calm and become said sentient, intelligent life form. maybe the original form that the engineers worship is like this? if not then it wouldn't make any sense for the engineers to have eggs on their planet. they would obviously be aware of the threat the creature poses to them. they may worship it but surely their not stupid