David's Army?

the timeline does not work for David to make the eggs, plus the Engineers already knew about the aliens. Alien covenant better clean up all the theories and give us facts about what David is doing. I don't believe he killed the Engineers because they would of killed him if they thought he posed threat right off the bat. If Ridley does make it were David killed them all be pissed because of everything they have done and made to have a dumb android kill them off is a slap in my face as a fan of Prometheus and the Alien movies as a whole. Just my opinion.

Of course.All opinions are welcome.It's really hard to say about the fate of the engineers.If David did kill them,then how the hell did he do it?If not then where the hell are they?

we could have the faction wars people have been talking about and David and Shaw come at the end and see a war tore planet with all the experiments running free if you will. David is free to study the history of the Engineers and maybe we see that some left and the is way out of left field but they took Shaw with them and David was left behind because he is what Peter said"with out a soul" so now he is alone studying and has found their weapons and now sent out a single to get the company's attention and bring the weapons to earth. Just my theory.

I'm familiar with the faction war angle.That's a good theory,i don't think I've seen it put that way yet.Some one told me if David exterminated the engineers,it was through The water supply.

@ninXeno426 I don't think the water supply works. We have seen pictures of Engineers burned alive like statues. I believe we are giving David to much credit for his role in the state in which the planet is in. I think we will see a flashback of Shaw meeting the Engineers and either they kill her or take her with them and we never see her again. The timeline between this movie and it's 2 sequels is coming up fast to Alien. But who knows just my opinion is all.

I agree.The water supply wasn't my idea.Whoever said that to me(it was a while ago)i think had forgotten about those images.Hell i almost forgot about those images.We didn't see anything in the trailer like that.Just goes to say this film has tremendous scope.I hope it runs close to 3 hours like Aliens and Alien 3's assembly cut.It seems the best way to cover everything.

There's going to be a prequel novel to Covenant they say.If the movie doesn't give us answers,then that might.Though i'd prefer it to be in the movie.

the best way to infect a large population would be to contaminate the water supply I think. a large number of engineers and other species could be infected before anyone knew or be able to do anything about it. the scene where all the beings have been burnt could either be from an earlier war in a backflash or possibly the way the uninfected engineers deal with the infected. only way to be sure there isn't anymore risk from them is to burn them

@ninXeno426 and BULL ALIEN

Will you TWO guys just get a Room already ;)

Dont want to make this a 3some, but i guess i may not help myself.

So indeed its a very good set of debates you are having, a massive sticking point for Prometheus 2 would have been

*How many Engineers are on Paradise, or what other Life (their creators or creations).

*How do they (what ever beings are on Paradise) view Mankind, and how would they react having Shaw and a Synthetic turn up (Ridley tells us these beings are not Benevolent).

*What Technology (what ever beings are on Paradise) possess?

*What knowledge of LV-223 Technology and purpose do they have?

The answers to these Questions will determine the likely-hood and how long Shaw and David survive.

Which by the looks of things, only David does... So Why and How?  This depends on the answers to those Questions i raised.

These were a sticky point for when i was working on my own Prometheus 2 draft and part why i abandoned the project.

Now Ridley Scott may have given us a clue!

When discusing a potential Prometheus 2 i think in late 2013? or early 2014, Ridley said that indeed They (David and Shaw) will be off to the Planet of the Engineers, but what they find are not Gods, not in the traditional sense... and they are far from Benevolent.

Ridley then responded by adding, but David is bringing "Hell with him" and what happens if the Black Goo infects God? or a MACHINE?

This could maybe hint that they have simply gone and destroyed the Engineers, its a bit of a cop out and if this is the case then how would we get any answers?  And how does Shaw?

Well if David can come across more Engineer Technology, more Architecture that has Engineer Writings or History he may be able to figure out this.

Would he know roughly enough already, could he find out more on the Juggernaught that would allow no need to get answers off the Engineers?

Maybe David has some idea, and he is banking on Engineers having clues but then he knows what happened when he last Met one of the Engineers and if he suffers a similar Fate, thats the End for David and any Agenda he has.

So maybe best to kill them off, then scavenge the ruins for Answers?

The only other way David would come out of the encounter with Engineers would be......

A COVENANT

A agreement between David and the Engineers, or who ever created the Engineers.  Especially if the Engineers are just a creation of some higher power/race.

We have to remember Paradise in context to Bible and Paradise Lost Poem, is not the Place of the Gods.

its only a place the Gods created so that they could seed it with life, and this life rebelled (Adam and Eve) there Sin then led to them being kicked out of Paradise.... now bear in mind the Biblical Account we are talking about The Garden of Eden and Paradise being on Earth... Heaven and Hell are different places.

In context to Alien Franchise, Paradise is not on Earth... but this does not mean that no Race who was on Paradise had disobeyed and then got kicked out of Paradise.

So maybe some other Race dwelled on Paradise? The Engineer said he came from there.... but in what role? 

Homeworld?

Or.... are they the Guardians of Paradise?  If Ridley refereed to the Engineers on LV-223 as Fallen Angels then we can look at the Covenant as far as the Badge which has those winged Cherubim on the Badge similar to those on the Ark of the Covenant

But while i dont want to touch upon the Ark, if we look at those Cherubim looking the same as those on the Covenant Badge and ask what connection do they have with Paradise?

If you then look at the Biblical accounts and yes we cant go too literal, but the Cherubim were high ranking Angels, whos one task was to Guard over Paradise and the Garden of Eden.

So in this context a group of Engineers was maybe given this task, but maybe some Rebelled or they Rebelled?

If this was the case, then indeed those LV-223 Engineers did come from Paradise but they had a different role there, and so the beings on Paradise could instead be more similar to Mankind.

But we cant be sure as there can be many ways to interpret and fit it all in.

But indeed if there are a Race who Guard many worlds where creaton was intended or the start of a certain chain of creation and this failed and some of those creations or indeed the Cherubim  trusted to look over them got up to no good, then either of these could be expelled off Paradise.

Maybe they could then set up Shop some place else? Like Earth?

If we do indeed go the route that Paradise is not the Engineers Homeworld and just i dont know the base they had in this Galaxy (Remember their Sat Navs had other Galaxies and so Travel of Millions of Light years is in their power).

Or the Engineers came from their in-context to that faction once had a certain role on Paradise before being kicked out.

Then indeed who ever is at the Top of that Chain, or indeed those who remain of the LV-223 Faction.. could maybe indeed.

MAKE A COVENANT WITH DAVID?

@ali81

Indeed that scene looks a bit odd if we are to consider it the result of the Black Goo....

To me it looks more like a Ancient Sodom and Gomorrah and if you refer to my previous post.... then maybe indeed those beings at the Top of the Chain could have laid down Punishment on those on Paradise again in the past?

I think its a Flash Back Scene but who knows.... i think if we dont see much about Engineers, i do hope that in future through David we can get some Narrative to what happened, and maybe Flash Backs to describe this visually.

Who knows where its going... a lot of the debated i have had and indeed what i have put here are in some ways ideas i had, but a lot has been influenced by the Source i had in February 2015 who apparently had information on the then Prometheus 2 Project... this is prior to what ever Changes John Logan had made in the Summer of 2015

One problem I have is we assume this is the home world of the Engineers but they could have many worlds. They are going back to were these ships left. It could be a bigger military base.

We could also see the damage done to this world was already done by the Engineers that were on LV-223. I still think we have two factions. The makers and destroyers. I don't believe David killed off the entire Engineer race.

I believe people are giving David way too much credit about the down fall of this new world. There could even be more Engineers left on LV-223 that woke up after the ship took off with David and Shaw which could also lead into another sequel. How they are looking for revenge on what happened to the last Engineer.

The Engineers got mad at us for a reason and I hope we find out why.

And indeed thats the problem we have, the problem i had when working on a draft and indeed problems Fox and Ridley had and why so many re-writes.  There really is a lot of ways it can all tie in together, but its hard to do justice without contradicting things or potential plot holes.

Its certainly open to debate which way they could have gone, and then wonder which way will they go with it.

I think Fox maybe released its a can of worms they opened and backed themselves into corner, and the reaction to Promehues compared to that for Blomkamps Alien 5, has me worried they feel they need to tone down the Engineers and give us Xenos.

But they will leave clues, so that if Fans then start to get upset at the lack of answers with regards to Engineers and LV-223 and if they feel they done enough Fan-Service to the Alien Fans who was not keen on Prometheus or Engineers, then maybe they can think of a way to explain it to us in the next movie after Alien Covenant?

When i was trying to work out how to connect it all in my draft, i had a hard time i was thinking how do i connect many Mythos, how do i connect Biblical connections and such... as well they was there... but loosely and to be considered as such.

Paradise Lost was referenced for the next movie, and the Prometheus Mythos was applied loosely in the first movie.. and i was thinking how can you connect it all but then the Xeno too?

I was thinking of different cultures and one was the Anunnaki which is regarded as the first well oldest civilized mankind accounts of Gods... and i was thinking how could this work?

We maybe have to interchange things and consider in context to Prometheus that the Biblical God can not be taken as GOD, but as many the head of a Faction of Gods. that the Biblical God was indeed one of the Gods, who came to Earth with his lower caste of Godlike beings the Angels.

Then we can start to put this together with other mythos.. so we have.

God, Titans, Anunnaki for example... so we then thus have.

Angels, Olympians and Igigi

But i was wondering the same as i break God down into being not The GOD, but one of The Gods...  then i thought are the Engineers thus Olympians? or are they the Titans and thus the Gods as in context to GOD in the Bible are the higher cast of Old Titans well the deities before them so Uranus 

And trying to do it justice and fit was hard.... i was going to be not literal....

Until i started to get information from the Source i had and take that on board and i have a rough idea now, but is it right? a lot depends if the Source was right though.

But i think they was pushing me to the route of the Anunnaki tale as being  a tale based off the Engineers Origins and every Myth and Religion after was a re-telling and different interpretation.

The Source seemed to point towards this.

We have a Superior Being, Race that require something, some purpose that will equate to the GOLD but we cant take it literally as Gold, but something that is of great importance and need, that to obtain is too much of a Toil for these Gods.

They created a lesser caste of beings in their Image, to take over this purpose for the greater cause of these Gods... These sub-created lesser caste of beings Rebelled and overthrew their creators much like we see with Fallen Angels and Olympian Gods and in context to the Annunaki these sub-created beings are the Igigi.

I think this is maybe where Engineers fit?

Due to the Rebellion of the Igigi, the Annunaki created Mankind to then proceed and take over this Toil...   The source hints a bit different to the Annunaki tale... vaguely as they seem to tease maybe the Annunaki did not create Mankind, but the Igigi did to replace them for their Toil.... but this was against their creators wishes and they got punished.

I dont know if the Source hinted the Engineers was the rebels against their creators.. but then they could be but it does not mean all Engineers rebelled.  just some and they was punished.

Source seems to tease as they are vague that.

The Engineers/Igigi either created Mankind then got found out.

Or those above the Engineers created Mankind, but then some Engineers then took some of us and then started to try and get us to subjugate under them after they overthrew or attempted to overthrow their creators... and they got caught out.

The Source hinted the Engineers was just as David is to us, and so just for a purpose to make some role for their creators more easy.

They hint that The Agenda for why we was created and Agenda of Engineers creation is Sinister and Dark. Shaw would find out about this and it would be so horrific and different to what role she thought we would be created for.

This leads me to think of the GOLD, and could then the Gold be something to do with the Black Goo, well Sacrificial Goo as in how its obtained or indeed that Engineers was needed for its purpose?

This is what the Source seemed to hint towards, and i think it could fit.

They also teased that Mankind had been to that system before (LV-223) and that Mankind is like 4th or 5th Generation and previous Generations had been wiped out before and to look at Mankind as not evolved from Apes but that Engineers came before us in that chain.

That Biblical Events had happened, but not in direct context to being towards our current Generation, and so they are to me teasing that Mankind evolved from Engineers and Mankind indeed or our Ancestors came from Paradise.

Seems to hint to me that maybe Paradise is just as Ancient Earth was,  and Earth was basically another attempt, or re-creation by those on Paradise or whos role was to watch over the creation on Paradise.

So the beings on Paradise are involved in some sinsister Ritual Purpose... maybe the Temple Ziggurats on Paradise are Landing Platforms some Race above those beings on Paradise come to collect Sacrifices, in return these beings are nurtured and taught knowledge to build Temples and Cloth themselves but never to a level they can advance beyond what Mankind on Earth could thousands of years ago.

This would explain the lack of Technology, and so those beings either rebelled or some did and was kicked out of Paradise, or those beings who created them had rebelled and created Mankind?

I think maybe Mankind was created for the same purpose, and so some Race above those beings on Paradise who indeed have sinister needs for those beings on Paradise and Mankind.

Basically talking mixing the Annunaki Tale, with Prometheus Mythos and Biblical Fallen Angels to paint a picture as above.

Where the GOLD is some Sinister Agenda, connected to the Sacrificial Go as far as obtain it or Sacrifices it requires.

This is where i now believe the Story was going...

But what its like now who knows... i think they can go this route, and have those beings on Paradise simply dead, and explained as above in some Sinister role and leave it so that next movie we can find out who are behind this Sinister Role.

David is the next in this line of Hierarchy, he was created by Mankind for a Purpose... but he has rebelled and now wishes to play God and create himself.

But they will leave clues, so that if Fans then start to get upset at the lack of answers with regards to Engineers and LV-223 and if they feel they done enough Fan-Service to the Alien Fans who was not keen on Prometheus or Engineers, then maybe they can think of a way to explain it to us in the next movie after Alien Covenant?

BigDave, that would be a clever solution by them, don't you think? Plus, that's why I think they gave up Alien 5. I can't imagine that A3 and AR will be deleted from the canon line. 

Thanks for input BigDave and the wonderful sense of humor lol.Ati i agree, 3 and Resurrection should be kept as canon.If they chopped them,then Alien would become just as confused as Terminator,but that's of topic.

nin, I can't tell if it's good or not, or they should be kept or not, just I have the feeling that the very clever people at Fox made up their mind some weeks ago regarding the script of the future...

I will say this Prometheus has done It's job. People still talk about it today and it saved the franchise.

Now if Alien Covenant does It's job we are off like a comet , I really how we get the shock and awe treatment. Like Big Dave said if we are unhappy with the lack of answers about then Engineers or lack of them we might get them in the next sequel.

So far I am loving this community of alien fans!

Well i think if you was FOX, and you worried the reaction to Prometheus was low because of lack of Answers and no Xenos and it was not Alieny...

Maybe Fox wanted to proceed with a not so Alieny sequel where we could get more explanation for Engineers and Agenda and in this we get more Xeno clues with out having to have Xenos but something different, or maybe even not have much Alieny Organisms at all... but i think the Black Goo would have to be touched upon.

Then came Blomkamps Alien 5 and Fox may have seen the positive reaction and seemed indeed a lot seemed more upbeat on this than following Shaw and her disappointment about these Bald Headed Engineers no being Gods but now she wanted her answers Face to Face...

Nope a Alien 5 was getting a lot of interest, Fans could see a better end for Ripley, we have Ripley again all the old favorites who was killed off at the start of Alien 3...  we will see the company has finally got a Derelict, we see Xeno experiments, maybe a Egg Morph.. a Queen.. a different kind of Xeno and Egg and then Ripley in some Engineers Bad Ass Space Suit.

What more could Fans ask for?

And so i think Fox

a) wanted to see Alien 5 as it could make money, but have to maybe change few things that conflict with Prometheus 2

b) decided they had to give more Alien clues in a Prometheus 2 sequel and fans not to interested in Shaw and her Quest, but wanted Xenos and so maybe by giving more clues now, would allow Alien 5 to go ahead after and not have to tread carefully to spoil any Alien Origins or how they connect to Engineers or where is any Engineers and Technology now... after Aliens.

Plus show us Xenomorphs..

And these are why i feel we got the re-write by Logan, its why Ridley is coming in now from the rear end... I feel thus Alien Covenant is the sequel to what ever they had first planned.

It will leave a few clues to what happened between Prometheus and then... but keep some mystery..

They can then gauge by Fans reactions, if a Sequel needs to answer Prometheus Questions and Engineers, or if Fans seem to not be bothered and well are wanting even more Xenos.

its a wise move if this is the case..

Please the Alien Fan boys enough now, tease a bit more to those Prometheus fans.

So that maybe the next movie can cater for Prometheus fans or more to Alien fans, but tease in the Engineers.

So that by the time Alien Covenant and its sequels are done, Alien Fanboys will get their fix and enough actions and still have a bit of mystery and they then will finally ask.

So how did those Engineers play a role in this, whats their history...

And so then a set of movies to go into that can be made, to then please Prometheus fans.

This is what i think is happening and i can understand why.

I just posted this to the Trilobite thread, then realized it was probably more relevant to this discussion. So here it is:

Not quite sure if this has been discussed here but I thought it may be worth mentioning. Either myself or someone on another thread had posited some time ago that David may have been left with no choice but to expose Shaw to black goo in order to save her from life threatening injuries. I'd take this a step further with the following premise:

Let us imagine Shaw does in fact continue to produce trilobites. If others are correct in their speculations on David deeply caring for Shaw, then perhaps it is the case that as she continued to produce trilobites, David had to remove them to save her. On realizing she was not going to stop producing, he set her up with a makeshift configuration to keep her alive while allowing for fast and easy removal of the trilobites as they were produced. In essence, David turns Shaw into a factory but with the pure intention of saving her life and easily containing each new trilobite.

As each one is produced, David naturally begins studying them and eventually experimenting. It is maybe the entire reason David has become this mad scientist in the first place. Except he is not mad, he is only trying to preserve his companion and following the investigative tendencies of his which were established in Prometheus. The trilobite(s) as a threat to Shaw as well as David's loyalty to her (if he is) may end up being the reason for everything that follows the story of Prometheus.